Comment on Greenstein Rating

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I have several friends who are very good poker players and who have now read the Greenstein book. They all like it a lot. But there are now reviews, some of which have appeared here, that are quite critical of it and I can't dispute the complaints these reviews represent.

I think the problem has to do with exactly what you, the reader, were expecting from this book as opposed to what this book is. One problem is that it is subtitled An Advanced Poker Guide. In many ways it is, but in other ways, with the possible exception of the hand examples, it's not. Ace on the River does not step you through detailed strategy. It mostly deals with those psychological holes, and in many cases not in extreme depth, that stop pretty good playes back from beginning great players.

Since these are areas that are rarely discussed in the poker literature, this book will have a lot of value for some players. But if you're a relatively new player who is still trying to figure out the basics of correct strategy, as Barry said to me, "Read a Two Plus Two book for that."

So all in all I still recommend Ace on the River. But a more accurate rating might be 8 + or -2 depending on what exactly you are looking for in the book and what An Advanced Poker Guide means to you.

One criticism that I do reject is the "too many pictures and not enough dense text." The book is 316 oversized pages. If Greenstein would have gone with normal size pages (such as our books use) and perhaps only had 280 pages by using less pictures, this comment would go away completely.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ryan Beal]

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One problem is that it is subtitled An Advanced Poker Guide. In many ways it is, but in other ways, with the possible exception of the hand examples, it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I've been stuck in my review, because I feel the exact same way.

I also agree with you about the book's length.

[bobdibble]

Inside the Poker Mind covers a lot of these non-strategic topics in more depth.

[SNOWBALL]

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Inside the Poker Mind covers a lot of these non-strategic topics in more depth.

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OTOH, John Feeney doesn't play 4/8k, does he?

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Inside the Poker Mind covers a lot of these non-strategic topics in more depth.

[/ QUOTE ]

OTOH, John Feeney doesn't play 4/8k, does he?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's fair.
If you want to discuss content, do it.
But don't try to dismiss someone's criticisms with, "Barry plays higher stakes!"

I like Greenstein's book, btw.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Inside the Poker Mind covers a lot of these non-strategic topics in more depth.

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I think Mason is aware of that, and was refering to things not already discussed in ITPM and POP, both of which he should be decently familiar with the contents of. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[BarronVangorToth]

The subtitle is poor - especially for what the book is.

When you set that aside and, as you said, examine whether it does what it is trying to do well, I think it does.

ESPECIALLY when you consider in the last few years the number of good non-2+2 poker-related books and list The Professor Banker and Suicide King, and King Yao's Weighing the Odds, and now Barry's Ace on the River.

I'm guessing some (incorrectly) thought that this would magically turn $20-$40 players into people who could hang with Barry and Phil Ivey and whomever else at the $4K-$8K game.

Considering how bad most non-2+2 poker books by name professionals turn out to be, this book could have been so much worse but not really a whole lot better, when you look at what Barry was trying to do with the text.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[piggity]

Another problem might be that this book does not resonate as well with many of the "new" poker players, including college-aged kids who primarily play online, or working professionals who treat the game as a recreational (albeit serious) hobby rather than a seriuos source of income. These players can't really relate to the various members of the "poker society," for instance.

Mason's correct in that the book was marketed as an advanced strategy guide, but turned out to primarily be a meta-meta-game guide.

I was disappointed.

[GreywolfNYC]

I haven't quite finished reading it yet, but I think there is a subtlety to the lessons that Barry is giving us here that either resonates within you immediately or it leaves you cold. Granted, there isn't much in the way of strategy but I didnt expect that there would be. Books about strategy are plentiful, and the best of them have been written by Sklansky. (I really dont think that there's much more anyone can say about how, for example, the high-limit players play AK when they miss the flop.) Once a player has mastered the concepts in the Theory of Poker (and I doubt very many have) he really doesn't need charts or roadmaps. Barry Greenstein is giving us his insight into what those qualities are that separate the game's top players from the rest. And those qualities, I believe, are what make the difference, not some esoterica that the rest of us are trying to gain access to.

[olliejen]

i'm half-way through this book and i think i understand why there have been so many negative reviews of barry's book.

1. as Mason stated, this book isn't a tactical manual. Its not trying to give a strategic edge to a part-time student who 4-tables $10/20 on Party for spending money. The premise of Ace on the River, essentially is for an already very good full-time poker player becoming an excellent professional. In this way, it goes into a *lot* of detail into what the world of high-stakes is all about and how to operate and navigate it successfully (table demeanor, dropping stakes, traps/mistakes professional gamblers routinely fall in...) Its been said many times, but no one seems to remember; the assumption is that you are already an excellent player!

If you never accept this premise, its like trying to read a mystery when you thought you wanted to read a romance novel.

2. Maybe some of the points BarryG highlights cut too close to home for some aspiring pros. One recurring theme in this book is quelling your ego and make profitable decisions and how to keep situations profitable. Every day in every forum here, people consciously make unprofitable decisions and justify it to themselves and others with some nonsensical platitude. Whether its taking on too big a game to satiate their sense of worth, getting into headsup pissing matches with unknowns, or not dropping stakes when it's appropriate to do so. And probably many more subtle errors that never make it to the forum like playing when you're already dead-tired after a day of class/work...

Also, while many pay lip service to not "tapping the glass"; BarryG takes it a step further & says you should make the fish comfortable! Offer condolences when you beat them in a race or give a little harmless action to keep them happy. At the same time, using any perceived personality flaw as motivation to take their $$. And all the while, trying to stay as unobtrusive as possible. If just an occasional part-time player can't maintain this type of karmic balance(and MANY here cannot) how could he reasonably expect to do it as his full-time job to put food on the table? To be fair, even many well-known professionals seem to routinely display sub-par professionalism in public places.

For myself, I am enjoying this book as its a glimpse into a world I have neither the temperment nor the talent nor the desire to ever enter. And you should be nice to me; b/c guys like me supply your part-time spending $$. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]