100nl: Two 4bet shoves with AQ

[nazahl]

[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.



[/ QUOTE ]

the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

[BCage]

That doesn't really make sense. If you're never folding to a shove it makes no difference how big you 4-bet. If you 4-bet smaller and he always folds crap then who cares how big you 4-bet, you win anyway.

[crunchi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.



[/ QUOTE ]

the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying but fail to see how this translates into $$$$

Assume we 4bet shove.
20% of the time he calls for -EV45 (im pulling these numbers outta my arse)
80% of the time he folds for +EV 14

=-9+11
=$2

Assume we min 4bet

20% of the time he 5bet shoves for -EV45 (we always call remember)
80% of the time he folds for +EV14

=-9+11
=$2

[tagWAG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nazahl,
we win the same when he folds.



[/ QUOTE ]


the benefit to 4betting small. think about it like this...

you open AQ otb, sb 3bets you AGAIN

you think he's tryin to run you over and figure his range is something like

any pp, ATs+, AJo, KJs+, KQo, and some randoms like J9s or 87s. we'll put this into 2 categories... the premium (JJ+,AK) and the crap (everything else)

you decide you'd rather not take a flop w/ AQ and have to fold to a cbet (you could and then just jam over his cbet but thats for another thread) and you feel like you have to take a stand against him so he doesnt get the impression that he can run you over. also, [censored] it you'd like to just take this down preflop and to do so you need some fold equity. so you decide to 4bet.

if you shove, he calls w/the premium - JJ+, AK and folds all the crap. maximum fold equity vs. crap for maximum cost

if you 4bet to like $31, he folds all the crap and shoves the premium. relatively same fold equity vs. the crap at a huge discount

the money is still going in against the same range but you ulitize your fold equity better against his weaker range of hands. its about managing cost effectiveness of the play to utilize fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

naz, you are levelling us right?