The Lay-down that gets you to the WSOP

[Nez477]

You have 12 BB's, are UTG, and there are 3 shorter stacks at the table, and only one more needs to be eliminated before you get the seat. This is an automatic AA fold, let alone a JJ fold. You'd need to be 29th or 30th in this spot to push, otherwise it's a fold.

I'm jealous BTW, nice job.

Brad

[seke2]

If Hero was, lets say, among the top 3 chipleaders in the tournament, should he play JJ here? What about KK or AA?

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 12 BB's, are UTG, and there are 3 shorter stacks at the table, and only one more needs to be eliminated before you get the seat. This is an automatic AA fold, let alone a JJ fold. You'd need to be 29th or 30th in this spot to push, otherwise it's a fold.

I'm jealous BTW, nice job.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Except hero wasn't UTG, he laid down JJ after limper limped his 99. I don't see how raising to 8k here is bad with 42K behind... anyone saying an AA fold here is correct here is wrong.

[iSTRONG]

Seke is correct. Check Harrington vol. 2 on satellite play.

[Boxman]

[ QUOTE ]
If Hero was, lets say, among the top 3 chipleaders in the tournament, should he play JJ here? What about KK or AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero was among the top 3 chipleaders, I would advise him to just "sit out" the rest of the game or even turn the computer off. There is no difference between placing 1st or 29th, they all pay the same seat into the WSOP.

That being said, there is also a minor responsibility to bust out the shorties who may be pushing any two just before the blinds hit. I say minor because while the big stacks don't have to become the table captains, they can best afford it when the odds are correct.

So calling with AA/KK is acceptable, as well as many other lower starting hands, as long as there is no one else involved in the pot.

I think the more interesting question would be if Hero made an isolation play with his JJ, and pushed "All-in", should PapaSmurf called with KK?

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
Just 3 comments:

1. Absolutely the correct play. Once you are guaranteed a seat, it would be correct to fold AA.

2. Congradualtions you bastard, I'm jealous.

3. Please use hand converter. Actually this should be a rule for the MTT forum.

Link for hand converter

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero (t42457)
Button (t22038)
<font color="#C00000">SB (t67110)</font>
BB (t31825)
UTG (t36487)
UTG+1 (t66456)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 (t12753)</font>
MP2 (t43060)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t3000, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t6000</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t12753</font>, SB calls t6603.

Flop: (t26256) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t26256) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t26256) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t26256

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Kh Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
MP1 has 9h 9s (two pair, queens and nines).
Outcome: SB wins t26256. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

This converter is wrong too, it makes it look like Hero acted after the MP1 minraise or something...action was limp, hero folds, minraise, limper pushers, minraiser calls.

[Nez477]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have 12 BB's, are UTG, and there are 3 shorter stacks at the table, and only one more needs to be eliminated before you get the seat. This is an automatic AA fold, let alone a JJ fold. You'd need to be 29th or 30th in this spot to push, otherwise it's a fold.

I'm jealous BTW, nice job.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Except hero wasn't UTG, he laid down JJ after limper limped his 99. I don't see how raising to 8k here is bad with 42K behind... anyone saying an AA fold here is correct here is absolutely correct .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

I did misread the hand. But even in this situation, AA is a fold. Let's say for the sake of argument that gwilkx and pechorin are 30th and 29th in chips. If you lose an 80-20 proposition here, you have less than 30k and have barely more than 29th and 30th, and you have to post the BB before Pechorin. So you have put yourself in a spot to lose a definite seat on an 80-20 race.

I'm assuming Prime Time is around 16th or so with his stack. FOURTEEN players would need to double up, or steal, or something along those lines to make Prime Time worry about his seat. There is MUCH greater than an 80% chance that he can fold his way into a seat.

If in this spot Prime Time was the chipleader, I'd push with AA or KK to play sheriff maybe. But even then I'd probably just be sitting out.

The blinds escalate and force others to push their small stacks into the blinds. This creates opportunites for short stacks to bust. If you are 3rd in chips for example, and a shorty pushes with 5 BB from the CO, and you hold any two cards you can risk a very little to knock out the shorty. But when you might possibly lose 2/5 of your stack or more if you continue with the hand and losing 2/5 of your stack puts you in the bottom 5 in chips, you NEED to fold everything.

In Prime Time's spot he isn't enough of a chipleader to push other big stacks away and he has a hand that is very easily beat. Raising to 8k here is unacceptable IMO. Pushing is horrible, and calling is bad. I hope I've made a decent argument as to why I'd fold AA or KK here as well.

Brad

[SossMan]

1. congrats

2. pretty easy fold with everything up to AA. With AA, probably still a fold, but calling isn't very, very wrong. My gut tells me that your tournament equity of folding here is higher than the weighted 80/20 of your stack if you happened to get AA cracked.

3. i don't like the converter on this hand, since it doesn't show stack sizes at the table.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
3. i don't like the converter on this hand, since it doesn't show stack sizes at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it did.

Hero (t42457)
Button (t22038)
SB (t67110)
BB (t31825)
UTG (t36487)
UTG+1 (t66456)
MP1 (t12753)
MP2 (t43060)

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
3. i don't like the converter on this hand, since it doesn't show stack sizes at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better, Soss? BTW, guys, I think this converter is pretty sweet.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1500/t3000
(Ante: t150)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t36487
UTG+1: t66456
MP1: t12753
MP2: t43060
Hero: t42457
Button: t22038
SB: t67110
BB: t31825

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls t3000, MP2 folds, Hero folds, Button folds, <font color="#cc3333">SB raises to t7500</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc3333">MP1 raises all-in t12603</font>, SB calls t6603.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t29406, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t29406)


Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t29406, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t29406)


River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t29406, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t29406)


Results:
Final pot: t29406