AC-ism in history?

[Vagos]

[ QUOTE ]
PVN,

[ QUOTE ]

Everyone agrees that personal initiation of violence is -MV.

[/ QUOTE ]

This certainly isn't true. e.g. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

'The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."'

[/ QUOTE ]

You should read more carefully if you're going to waste time digging up polling stats that don't apply to someone's statement. Unless those polled are the ones flying across the world to bomb civilians, we can throw this one out.

[ QUOTE ]
Take a more personal example. You're standing in a group of people talking on your mobile phone at a bus stop. A woman collapses clutching her chest, apparently having a heart attack. The people there ask you to use your mobile to phone for an ambulance. If you refuse then most people will agree that they're justified in taking it from you, violently if necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice that when pvn says "everyone", he clearly does not mean the very small percentage of people who murder, steal and rape on a personal level. I would guess this is about the same percentage of people that would flat out refuse to dial 9-1-1 for someone who is dying right in front of them. So we can dispense with the highly unlikely and outright ridiculous hypotheticals too.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Notice that when pvn says "everyone", he clearly does not mean the very small percentage of people who murder, steal and rape on a personal level. I would guess this is about the same percentage of people that would flat out refuse to dial 9-1-1 for someone who is dying right in front of them. So we can dispense with the highly unlikely and outright ridiculous hypotheticals too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not completely on point, but I wouldn't be so certain that people will call for help Kitty Genovese

[Vagos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Notice that when pvn says "everyone", he clearly does not mean the very small percentage of people who murder, steal and rape on a personal level. I would guess this is about the same percentage of people that would flat out refuse to dial 9-1-1 for someone who is dying right in front of them. So we can dispense with the highly unlikely and outright ridiculous hypotheticals too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not completely on point, but I wouldn't be so certain that people will call for help Kitty Genovese

[/ QUOTE ]

This one anecdote doesn't refute anything I said.

[BuddyQ]

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Notice that when pvn says "everyone", he clearly does not mean the very small percentage of people who murder, steal and rape on a personal level. I would guess this is about the same percentage of people that would flat out refuse to dial 9-1-1 for someone who is dying right in front of them. So we can dispense with the highly unlikely and outright ridiculous hypotheticals too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not completely on point, but I wouldn't be so certain that people will call for help Kitty Genovese

[/ QUOTE ]

This one anecdote doesn't refute anything I said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, bunk it up with the Milgram studies and you'll know that people don't really act very idealistically, they don't always act rationally, they often do what someone else tells them too and they don't always mind coercion and there is usually a coercer or too hiding out in any modestly large group of people. They're people.

And that's my beef with these debates in general - proposing that cultural structures negating AC principles may very well arise in some setting where AC is the norm, even if ACists doesn't support them, is usually just ignored.

[Vagos]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, bunk it up with the Milgram studies and you'll know that people don't really act very idealistically, they don't always act rationally, they often do what someone else tells them too and they don't always mind coercion

[/ QUOTE ]

We're just going in circles now. The original point was that people accept this one a widescale level but certainly not on a personal level. People on a day to day basis certainly try to make the best possible decisions for their everyday life, acting rationally. And they certainly DO mind if they're being coerced on a personal, tangible level. i.e. people are going to mind if they get mugged.

[ QUOTE ]
and there is usually a coercer or too hiding out in any modestly large group of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...I've already admitted as much. What's your point?