Zero Sum Blackjack: Possible?

[hogua]

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Since casinos rate BJ play higher than a net theo of 0%, if this were to happen, the game would have a players advantage once comps (both hard and soft) were taken into account.


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What would motivate a casino to offer a blackjack game with no house edge, and then comp against it? Am I missing something?

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Good question.

Here's another. Why did a LV casino (on the strip) install video BJ games (full pay...i.e. BJ's paid 3/2, etc) and give double points for play, which resulted in a 0.5% players advantage?

This happend a few months ago, and lasted for over two months.

Why did the casino let it last so long?

Why did the casino award comps on top of the points earnned?

BTW, even without the additional comps, this resulted in a $300+ per hour play for the pros that hit it, and most of them played two machines at once.

Why would the casino do this?

[SheetWise]

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... double points for play, which resulted in a 0.5% players advantage

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BTW, even without the additional comps, this resulted in a $300+ per hour play for the pros that hit it, and most of them played two machines at once.

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To earn $300 an hour with .5% advantage would require a handle of $60,000 per hour -- and you're saying that this earnings was without the additional comps? Do you have links to this information? What limits did the machines have? It sounds fishy.

How could this happen? Most people running casinos are nearly clueless about how their industry operates -- but there's almost always a consultant or one person up the line who gets it. Sometimes games and promotions get released without proper review.

[hogua]

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... double points for play, which resulted in a 0.5% players advantage

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BTW, even without the additional comps, this resulted in a $300+ per hour play for the pros that hit it, and most of them played two machines at once.

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To earn $300 an hour with .5% advantage would require a handle of $60,000 per hour -- and you're saying that this earnings was without the additional comps? Do you have links to this information? What limits did the machines have? It sounds fishy.

How could this happen? Most people running casinos are nearly clueless about how their industry operates -- but there's almost always a consultant or one person up the line who gets it. Sometimes games and promotions get released without proper review.

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This type of thing happens from time to time. Hasn't anyone here read Sklansky's "Getting the Best of It" and "Gambling for a Living"? Basically, casinos make mistakes.

Maybe someone did the math wrong. Maybe no one did the math. Maybe the slot technician turned on the wrong setting on the machine. Maybe it was done by a disgruntaled employee who either wanted to get back at his/her employer or perhaps was on the payroll of a pro. Maybe Casino Operations (the group that determines what machines to put on the floor and what settings to set on them) didn't know/care that the slot club (run by Marketing Department) was running a double points promo.

The machines had a limit of $50 per hand and a fast player can do 1500 hands an hour. $50*1500= $75,000 per hour of action. Subtract some hands for breaks, feeding money into the machine, etc, and this easily offered $300 per hour of +EV. This only takes into account the "free play" that the players were rewarded by the slots club for the points they're play earned. It doesn't not factor in the soft comps that $75,000 of action (per machine) will merit.

You've heard the stories about what Vegas casinos will do to attract whales to their properties, haven't you? Well someone that is good for $75,000 of coin-in per hour, and is going to play 14-16 hours a day (or more) 7 days a week is going to get whale status.


I don't have a link to the play. Pros don't like to make their plays public (especially ones this good) even after they're dead. I do know for a fact that it did exist for at least two months.

I'm sure some 2+2ers, especially Vegas locals, have heard about this play. Since it died, it has been talked about more freely than most plays usually are. I can't be the only one, so maybe someone else can confirm that they heard about this too.

[Thremp]

You do realize that is a hand every 2.4s. That is retardedly fast. Online play is like 600 per and screaming. I'd pay someone 1k to play a VPBJ machine that fast for 8 hours.

[hogua]

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You do realize that is a hand every 2.4s. That is retardedly fast. Online play is like 600 per and screaming. I'd pay someone 1k to play a VPBJ machine that fast for 8 hours.

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Have you ever played one of these video BJ games? They are fast..faster than online games.

BTW, I'm not sure where you're playing BJ online, but if your only getting 600 hands an hour either the site's software/cnnection is slow or you are slow a slow player.

A pro can easily play 1000-1200 hands of video poker per hour. So why is it hard to beleive they getting in 1500 hands of video BJ per hour? Each hand of video BJ is dealt faster than VP there are never any tricky decisions to make (just follow the basic stategy chart). VP on the other hand tends to require a bit more complicated strategy, which could slow down play.

LOL at "retardedly fast".

I'm not sure why you're going out of your way to poke holes in this true story, when it is clear you know little about the subject. I mean comparing online play to machine in a casion is just pointless.

[SheetWise]

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Have you ever played one of these video BJ games? They are fast..faster than online games.

BTW, I'm not sure where you're playing BJ online, but if your only getting 600 hands an hour either the site's software/cnnection is slow or you are slow a slow player.


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I've played them, because I write code for them. I've written for both Internet and cabinets -- and never made any distinction in the rate of play. Thremp is very close to our observations at his max rate of 600 hands per hour, on a heads up game.

I honestly don't believe that 1,000 is possible -- let alone 1,500. One of the reasons is that all wagers are acknowledged, as well as all winners. There are dwell times on those screens that, while short, are not zero. The player options do not function during those periods. The play is also animated to make it more interesting -- the deal itself takes time. Insurance options have to be responded to, and the dealers hand, upon a win, includes another dwell period. I'm sure they've reprogrammed these machines rather than remove them, and all you have to do is go monitor your own play as fast as you can for about ten minutes to realize how ridiculous a 1,000 to 1,500 hand per hour rate is.

[Thremp]

Hoqua,

The online numbers are what some professionals I've talked to have experienced. In reality I'm closer to 300-400 for a 8 hour type workday. I need to take 15 minute breaks, I lose focus, etc. I can't imagine live play would be much quicker than online play. Though what you're saying at 2.5x the speed is insanity.

Also, long term play at that speed is going to be riddled with errors. Playing anywhere near max speed increase your error rate dramatically especially when grinding hour after hour.

Also IIRC isn't handle for BJ typically right around 1.1x your base wager due to doubling/splitting etc. If automated, I'd assume this would be the way its calculated, no?