FossilMan requests your feedback

[RandALLin]

PokerStars Game #12122404417: Tournament #70000006, $300+$20 Omaha Pot Limit
- Level XVIII (3000/6000) - 2007/09/18 - 01:01:30 (ET)
Table '70000006 98' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: FossilMan (368923 in chips)
Seat 3: PlayaAAK8 (442100 in chips)
Seat 4: MrGuggenheim (214236 in chips)
Seat 6: MrSmits (673257 in chips)
Seat 7: actaml (198456 in chips)
Seat 8: RandALLin (318535 in chips)
Seat 9: DaMethod (381348 in chips)
DaMethod: posts small blind 3000
FossilMan: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FossilMan [9d Ac 6d 4c]
PlayaAAK8: folds
MrGuggenheim: folds
MrSmits: folds
actaml: folds
RandALLin: raises 12000 to 18000
DaMethod: folds
FossilMan: calls 12000
*** FLOP *** [5s Qh 7s]
FossilMan: checks
RandALLin: bets 30000
FossilMan: calls 30000
*** TURN *** [5s Qh 7s] [8c]
FossilMan: bets 66000
RandALLin: calls 66000
*** RIVER *** [5s Qh 7s 8c] [3c]
FossilMan: bets 126000
RandALLin: folds
FossilMan collected 231000 from pot
FossilMan: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 231000 | Rake 0
Board [5s Qh 7s 8c 3c]
Seat 1: FossilMan (big blind) collected (231000)
Seat 3: PlayaAAK8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: MrGuggenheim folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MrSmits folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: actaml folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: RandALLin (button) folded on the River
Seat 9: DaMethod (small blind) folded before Flop

I knew I should have folded turn, I thought you were bluffing cause your hand just didn't make alot of sense w/ my perceived pre-flop calling ranges on you. I just didn't think you'd call oop w/ 64 and no wrap on the flop to c/r. I had AQ76 btw, nh.

edit: I'm dumb and didn't look at your whole hand and just saw the 64 lol. I thought you would c/r some sort of wrap draw on the flop in that case, maybe if you had spades I suppose.

[MLG]

Greg,
On hand 259, where you turn two pair, and a 2nd flush draw (this one to the nuts) how close do you think calling, vs raising are. Primarily, are you concerned with getting bluffed on the river if you dont improve, or are you concerned that you will be allowing a different draw to hit that you will have to pay off anyway if you miss. I guess the question boils down to the dynamics of the table/a player read. My initial reaction was that calling the turn, planning to value bet good rivers and fold vs a bet on bad ones seemed to be the best way to go.



P.S. the report and the HH are both great reads, I really think everybody should take the time to go over them, especially if you want to learn about PLO.

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
Greg,
On hand 259, where you turn two pair, and a 2nd flush draw (this one to the nuts) how close do you think calling, vs raising are. Primarily, are you concerned with getting bluffed on the river if you dont improve, or are you concerned that you will be allowing a different draw to hit that you will have to pay off anyway if you miss. I guess the question boils down to the dynamics of the table/a player read. My initial reaction was that calling the turn, planning to value bet good rivers and fold vs a bet on bad ones seemed to be the best way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was top and bottom and a double FD (nut and 3rd nut):

*********** # 259 **************
PokerStars Game #12118815686: Tournament #70000006, $300+$20 Omaha Pot Limit
- Level XII (600/1200) - 2007/09/17 - 21:21:04 (ET)
Table '70000006 98' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: FossilMan (109470 in chips)
Seat 2: JA2377 (54426 in chips)
Seat 3: Pokerro (60615 in chips)
Seat 4: MrGuggenheim (126489 in chips)
Seat 5: dreedog (66744 in chips)
Seat 6: MrSmits (48540 in chips)
Seat 7: iecavniex (19300 in chips)
Seat 8: MrCoco (116974 in chips)
Seat 9: Halfrek (43961 in chips)
Pokerro: posts small blind 600
MrGuggenheim: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FossilMan [Qc 3s Jc As]
dreedog: folds
MrSmits: folds
iecavniex: folds
MrCoco: folds
Halfrek: folds
iecavniex has returned
FossilMan: raises 1800 to 3000
JA2377: folds
Pokerro: calls 2400
MrGuggenheim: calls 1800
*** FLOP *** [8c 3c 5s]
Pokerro: checks
MrGuggenheim: bets 4800
FossilMan: calls 4800
Pokerro: folds
*** TURN *** [8c 3c 5s] [Qs]
MrGuggenheim: bets 10800
FossilMan: raises 21800 to 32600
MrGuggenheim: folds
FossilMan collected 40200 from pot
FossilMan: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40200 | Rake 0
Board [8c 3c 5s Qs]
Seat 1: FossilMan collected (40200)
Seat 2: JA2377 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Pokerro (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: MrGuggenheim (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: dreedog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MrSmits folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: iecavniex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: MrCoco folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Halfrek folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Given the weak leads by MrGuggenheim, the turn raise is for value + protection. Greg is probably an equity favourite but he could easily be outdrawn.

I think the main arguments should be about the flop call and the size of the turn raise (perhaps a bit small, depending on your read on the meaning of villain's 1/2 pot leads).

[MLG]

yeah,
the flop call was thin to my thinking, but Im certainly not a PLO expert...as my question indicates. Anyway, I really just wanted to generate discussion.

[Clayton]

i also prefer calling on that turn. two seperate strong'ish leads oop on that flop texture typically indicates a two pair'ish hand, a set, a decent draw, or a strong draw.

raising on the turn is going to fold out:

- top two maybe 50% of the time, and the other 50% i think he plays for stacks

- any other two pair I think villain folds

- if he has a set, he is stacking off

- if he has a really strong draw, he stacks off because he doesnt put you on a set often enough with the flop call and he figures to have FE

- if he has only a decent draw, he folds.

So, given that, I like MLG's line a lot more. By flatting the turn we are representing a weakish two pair or a decent draw that does not want to bloat the pot.

I think a good analogy for NLHE is holding T9spades, raising pre and both blinds call. Flop 652 two spades. SB (fairly aggro) bets 3/4 pot, BB folds, hero calls. Turn is an offsuit ten. Villain bets again fairly strong.

[Silent A]

I can't speak for the villain, but just over 1/2 pot leads don't qualify as "strongish" in PLO on these draw heavy boards. They're solidly weak. Villain looks like he's scared to play for stacks and is trying to keep the pot size low. Something like 8765 w/o clubs or spades seems probable.

As for Greg's turn raise, it was about 1/2 pot (22k rise in a 40k pot) so it was small by his 2/3 to 3/4 standard. An easy mistake to make in the moment though.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

MLG, thanks for your kind words and feedback. As Silent A suggests, when I raised the turn, it was mostly because I thought I had the best hand, and I didn't want to just call and see a straightening card hit the river. Even a club would have been iffy, as it isn't hard to put my opponent on the nut club draw. Lots of bad cards that I won't know if they beat me or not, so even if he checks them, I can't value bet anymore. The main reason for the flop call is that I had position, and many times I had called with nothing, been checked to on the turn, and took the pot with a bet. Not improperly, my calls were being given much more credit than my bets/raises, so I stole quite a few pots this way.

As for the size of the turn raise, it was pretty much my standard. I always bet or raise (with only a few exceptions) about 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot, so I don't want to vary it here just because I'm more interested in getting a fold.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)