$10 turbo - overpair with JJ and 2 all-ins

[Thegunshow]

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You got an early min raise and a call and you repop it to 3x the minraise?

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It's actually to 4x the minraise.

I think the raise amount is fine. If I raise it more, I'm committed to the hand, which I don't like with JJ, >30xBB stack and an overcard flopping almost always.

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I think you are already committed to the hand. Which is why I call.

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Good call, it was 4x but I still don't like the raise. You are committed to the hand with this bet amount and if you don't want to be committed with Jacks you should either call in position or fold. By the time you get to postflop, you probably gotta call.

[Sherman]

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You got an early min raise and a call and you repop it to 3x the minraise?

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It's actually to 4x the minraise.

I think the raise amount is fine. If I raise it more, I'm committed to the hand, which I don't like with JJ, >30xBB stack and an overcard flopping almost always.

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I think you are already committed to the hand. Which is why I call.

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Good call, it was 4x but I still don't like the raise. You are committed to the hand with this bet amount and if you don't want to be committed with Jacks you should either call in position or fold. By the time you get to postflop, you probably gotta call.

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I think he should get committed with JJ here if he flops an overpair, which is why I think the raise size is fine and calling on the flop is fine. The call on the flop has to be good. Run some ranges that include hands that don't have a T and this is way +EV.

[TFGoose]

Jesus, I must be a turbonit. I agree that I'm not wild about the pre-flop raise cuz it commits 1/4 of our stack. But with that action in front of me I think I grunt and muck it. Yeah, we're getting 4 to 1, but it's against two players. We have to be 20% likely to win the hand vs. both of them. Are we sure enough that one of them doesn't hold a 10 or an overpair? Cuz if they do, we have 2 outs with 2 cards to come.

Meh, whatever, I guess I can see the argument for calling with these stacks and that much money out there. But my gut was fold. Maybe I need to work on my gut....

--TFGoose

[Sherman]

Second guy could easily have AK or a flush draw. First guy could easily have an underpair. That is good for at least 20% equity IMO. It's really an easy math problem, but I am going to lunch. Super Buffet!

[ssnyc]

it's a TURBO...they don't have to have monsters here...I raise more pre...this is from experience...even if you push pre they will call you with 33-88...I think in these turbos you get value from playing the big pairs hyperaggressive...yes they wil hav QQ+ sometimes but on the whole it will get outweighed by calls by 55 and A 10 off...

As played I suck it up and call...get ready for the next one or have a nice stack vs FD and smaller pair

[black666]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought for a while and called because with that much money in the pot this has to be +EV in my oppinion.

But since there was some discussion about the PF re-raise .. what should my PF action have been?

[karlwig]

I think this is an easy fold.

edit: ok, so its not that EASY, looked at stack sizes and you're kinda commited and you're getting a nice price. i still think its a fold, but its close.

[Sherman]

/Sigh/

Seriously folks, this isn't that difficult of a problem. It isn't about "I think this is a close fold; I think this is a call."

The correct play is obvious and it is determined by MATH. Here is some math:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.690% 44.01% 00.68% 3284695448 50859508.17 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 36.895% 36.18% 00.71% 2700474303 53241227.67 { 66+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 18.415% 18.11% 00.31% 1351332184 23152859.17 { TT, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, ATs, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KTs, QdJd, QTs, JTs, T8s+, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo, T9o }


I threw most (but certainly not all) of the possible flush draw hands in. I also put a bunch of the Tx hands in for player two. I think we have a very very very clear call. I could have also included underpairs like 88 and 99 for player 2, but w/e. Please call and please do math.

Sherman

[nancyloum1]

I see your case for the call, but don't you think that range for caller 2 is a little loose? 10/8 suited? After two preflop raises? A2 suited? I don't play a lot of turbo, but that seems insane to me.

[Tackleberry]

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/Sigh/

Seriously folks, this isn't that difficult of a problem. It isn't about "I think this is a close fold; I think this is a call."

The correct play is obvious and it is determined by MATH. Here is some math:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.690% 44.01% 00.68% 3284695448 50859508.17 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 36.895% 36.18% 00.71% 2700474303 53241227.67 { 66+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 18.415% 18.11% 00.31% 1351332184 23152859.17 { TT, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, ATs, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KTs, QdJd, QTs, JTs, T8s+, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo, T9o }


I threw most (but certainly not all) of the possible flush draw hands in. I also put a bunch of the Tx hands in for player two. I think we have a very very very clear call. I could have also included underpairs like 88 and 99 for player 2, but w/e. Please call and please do math.

Sherman

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What did you wanted to prove with this? It looks like you did not take the board into account, didn´t you?

Board: Tc 4c Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.467% 16.41% 00.06% 393184 1318.00 { JcJs }
Hand 1: 10.519% 10.41% 00.10% 249492 2509.50 { 66+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 73.014% 72.96% 00.05% 1747964 1191.50 { TT, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, ATs, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KTs, QdJd, QTs, JTs, T8s+, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo, T9o }

With this figures it looks like a clear fold ... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

By the way - is anybody (besides me) concernd of the min-raise pf from UTG? My first intuitive reaction is AA/KK - however I already saw pf-minraises from ep with K8s ... What are you guys thinking?