Common situation with awkward stack sizes $4.40

[Sherman]

I like making a bigger raise than normal, say to t350 or t375 and shove any flop. Go and Go style.

Anyhow, I like this better than a normal raise b/c then your bet on the flop is ~PSB. Your hand is too valuable to limp with IMO. Also, a Go and Go works great in this spot b/c even if you miss the flop and get called, you likely have outs to TP; making your flop shove a semi-bluff rather than an outright bluff. So doing this with something like 44, is not so good IMO.

[BlueEcho]

Sherman,

You like a Go and Go better than just shoving? Certainly with the stacks of UTG+1 and MP1 you can expect a wide calling range that we crush. A go and go, while it helps them make a mistake by folding on the flop also allows them to play it perfect at the same time no? BTW my last sentence confused even me. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I'm just questioning it being better than a shove here.

I guess to simplify things I like getting my chips in against a range that I'm pretty sure I'm crushing especially since I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get a call. Also, I'm happy with no callers as well. I do recognize it as a bit of an overbet. But when the chances of getting called by a worse hand are pretty likely I like my money in the middle. To further that, don't we want full value of our stack instead of letting villian off at a 1/3 of the price?

IMO Shove > Go and Go > Limp

[Sherman]

Shoving 1.1K into a t175 pot seems like a huge overbet to me and I don't know why anyone would call us.

We are still getting full value out of our stack b/c our plan is to put it all in on the flop. No hand that villain's hold PF can profitably call our 1/3 stack raise and then shove on the flop.

Basically, by putting in 1/3 of our stack PF, we play perfectly post flop. We have no decisions to make b/c we are committed to the pot. In the meantime, we do not let our opponents play perfectly at all (unless they fold PF). Many villain's will ignore the fact that we have put in 1/3 of our stack PF and call. Then we put them to a difficult decision on the flop b/c they did not properly plan their hand.

Unless we expect villain's to call very wide PF (which seems ridiculous to me; but it may not be) I'm pretty confident that a go and go is the optimal line. I suppose if they will call PF with a really wide range we gain more by shoving PF.

[BlueEcho]

Hmmm maybe i'm off a bit on the calling range. And if so then a go and go is best. Intially it seemed very likely to me that you are getting looked up here. If you think you that's crazy then I'll have to reevaluate my thinking in these spots. I just figured big stacks + 4.40 = loose call.

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm maybe i'm off a bit on the calling range. And if so then a go and go is best. Intially it seemed very likely to me that you are getting looked up here. If you think you that's crazy then I'll have to reevaluate my thinking in these spots. I just figured big stacks + 4.40 = loose call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

You are probably a better judge of what is calling than me right now. I've been playing a ton of cash games and no one ever calls that sort of bet in cash games. And I haven't a played a 4/180 in quite some time...so don't second guess yourself just yet.

[Butcho22]

I thinking limping is so gross here. I would never, ever ever limp.
I shove every time because A)Taking down 175 pre is pretty good for us at this point, B)One of the big stacks will often call us with what is almost certainly a weaker hand. AJ/KJ/QJ, etc..

Sometimes we'll race 88 but that's fine too with our stack.

[markbris]

As far as a go and go, I was under the impression that works better when you are oop so you get to act first and shove. If we get a call and we are in position, and they lead into us on a bad flop are we still just shoving it? I hate limping btw too. Why limp when we know we are ahead of limpers ranges and could get value from a raise?

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as a go and go, I was under the impression that works better when you are oop so you get to act first and shove. If we get a call and we are in position, and they lead into us on a bad flop are we still just shoving it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely correct Mark and determining the correct play on the flop if villain stop and goes us is going to be tricky. However, I think we can safely fold on K high rainbow flops. We should call on two spade flops as well, especially if we have two overs (no king). I'd probably also call on flops in which I have more than six outs. If we only have what appears to be 6 outs or less, we have to fold. But in those cases, it seems that villain really let us off easy by donk-leading and we should be happy. A villain should not be donk-bluffing into us given the pot-size and our stack size with air...it doesn't make sense to.

Anyhow, do realize that by raising larger than normal PF, we are often picking up this pot PF anyway.

Sherman

[kenny7]

I haven't done the math or anything,and if i'm way off,I apologize,but shoving seems pretty bad to me.I accept that there probably are alot of people that will call w KJ etc here,however,although I agree with butcho that it's OK to take a coinflip when 88 calls,we are still behind.Think I'm being seriously longwinded here,but the point I'm getting to is that for everytime we get called by the KJ type hands,won't we run in to a monster? We are after all in MP,lots of people still to act and if either of them has AK or QQ+....not good for us,so a big raise has to be better.

[markbris]

I agree with the go n go move but theres probably not a ton of difference between it and shoving as we probably do get looked up by garbage a fair amount. Your point about maybe running into a monster doesnt make sense though because if we raise to 350 and someone shoves we are calling anyways so we get it in against monsters either way.