Yet another NYC raid

[FireStorm]

These get enforced regardless. The whole politics argument is starting to get a little old, rehearsed, and boring. Police bust places like these because it's their job to do so. I've said this before, poker players seem to think that their places shouldn't get busted for the simple fact that to them, poker activities are moral and therefore shouldn't be a crime. Newsflash - this is the same line of thinking about 90% of criminals employ. Clubs are illegal by nature and thus subject to prosecution, regardless of how many "woe is me, AC is so far away" complaints get uttered.

This is coming from someone who was actually on the B+M side of the fence for awhile, having been charged myself in connection with a busted club, and having dealt/played nightly at two others which I left prior to police showing up and suggesting that they close.

Prevalence of rooms overall is decreasing by the day, for many reasons unrelated to busts. Within a couple of years I'd imagine few if any will be left. For now, the raids continue.

[onoble]

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poker players seem to think that their places shouldn't get busted for the simple fact that to them, poker activities are moral and therefore shouldn't be a crime. Newsflash - this is the same line of thinking about 90% of criminals employ.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Something that has no victims to me is not a crime. I know clubs are illegal but there is only so much police power in the city. The police have to be delegated to certain geographic locations and can only cover so much ground in a night. Why bust up a card game when there is more serious crime occurring?

[FireStorm]

Exactly what I'm talking about. This is the same disjointed logic used by drug addicts, tax evaders, guys who crack up g/f's who cheat on them, and whomever else feels that "their" crime is the one that is victimless. Please know that I am not equating any of the above to poker, clearly these are more serious infractions. However, the law is the law, and it says you cannot have a poker room for the purpose of profit. Owners know the laws when they open these venues, and they know the risks/penalties involved. Open one, live with the consequences.

The commentary on not busting it up because more serious stuff is going on is absurd. Police don't have the right to simply ignore crimes as they please. Many of these clubs are flaunting their existence - emails, business cards, cars parked suspiciously at all hours of the night, etc etc. Police do not exist for the purpose of going out and deciding that XYZ crime isn't serious, so they will ignore it. Do you suggest that they simply let it go on? Doesn't speak much for their credibility, does it?

[sivadom]

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Police don't have the right to simply ignore crimes as they please.

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I think this a common misconception, and, really, at the heart of what is wrong with the role of police in society. Laws are hard and fast if applied, but when and how often they are is another matter altogether, especially for relatively minor offenses. How many times have we all passed a radar trap travelling in slight excess of the speed limit, only to have the cop ignore us and wait for a 'bigger' offender? Many. The same principle applies at a higher level when the sergeant/commisioner/mayor/whoever motivates those under him to target specific crimes above others. The reasons can range from politics to need for greater ticket revenue to seeming personal whim. Giuliani's crackdown on jaywalking, anyone? Waaay OT, but just my 2c.

[FireStorm]

You make a decent point and this is something I thought of previously, but these are not offenses which carry potential jail times or have long term effects.

[*TT*]

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You make a decent point and this is something I thought of previously, but these are not offenses which carry potential jail times or have long term effects.

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you work in NJ rooms. Do you know the guys at the soccer club? They did time, it my my boy Jose miserable (which if you know Jose is hard to believe, he is always happy). My friend has a case in the NYC system now, his outlook isn't good, they are hoping for a shorter term penalty but its likely he will see the inside of a cell for a bit.

whatever you do, don't downplay the facts - working in these rooms are a great risk, far greater than playing.

[FireStorm]

Please reread. The above cut and paste actually has less than zero to do with poker rooms. It is in reponse to the person above me talking about jaywalking and speeding. I have posted about such risks two or three dozen times recently, so clearly I am aware and not going to downplay risks of working.

Jose's name has been thrown around quite a bit. I don't know him personally. This was about a year and change before I became involved over there. Nobody involved with me did jail time or anything close to it, albeit one person is still on the lam.

[CincyLady]

Why not take this opportunity and instead of complaining about the raids, work with your state representives to create a bill to change your states contitution to allow for card rooms, and have it put on the next ballot?

I'm sure there are enough poker players in NY that would be more than willing to sign a petition to have such a law/change to the NY Constitution put onto the ballot, that would allow for card rooms in NY (like they are in California).

[TMTTR]

Well, a semi-public message sent out by one of the clubs today begins: "Due to greed in the poker community the [NAME OF CLUB] became the target of continuous raids."

Anyone care to explain the meaning of that sentence? Are we being told that the principals of certain establishments are using the police as a weapon against other establishments?

[F0rtysxity]

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However, the law is the law, and it says you cannot have a poker room for the purpose of profit.

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I'm not feeling these arguments here. The world we live in is not black and white and always clear cut. Sometimes what is considered morally acceptable by a society changes, sometimes it changes before the written law changes. Usually then law enforcement is lax or chooses to 'look the other way' because believe it or not, the laws and its enforcement is there to benefit us as a people. There are plenty of cases where the law is not strictly enforced, if you possess less than 5 grams of marijuana in Alaska or Berlin Germany it is understood that you will not be arrested even though it is against the law. The jaywalking example in NYC several years ago is another one. The anti-sodomy laws that exist in several states still might be another one.

So when the clubs get shut down there are many players who feel like the law enforcement is breaking some of the unwritten understood rules we've agreed to, namely that poker isn't that bad and that the cops should look the other way.

I'm sympathetic. Doesn't seem like there is much else to do besides complain about it.