PNL Study Group Day 5: Pot Control

[cjk73]

On page 68 there is a discussion of betting less when the board is uncoordinated in order to exercice pot control. Just so I am clear, this applies when you have a decent but potentially vulnerable hand like top pair and not when you miss and are c-betting, correct? In other words, you can sort of put the "must control pot" concern out of your mind when c betting a missed flop because you'll check/fold the rest of the hand anyway assuming villains call, correct?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
On page 68 there is a discussion of betting less when the board is uncoordinated in order to exercice pot control. Just so I am clear, this applies when you have a decent but potentially vulnerable hand like top pair and not when you miss and are c-betting, correct? In other words, you can sort of put the "must control pot" concern out of your mind when c betting a missed flop because you'll check/fold the rest of the hand anyway assuming villains call, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding on this:

You're talking about cbetting with no pair, which is probably bluffing, esp. if you're double barrelling. This is different than pot control. If you check the turn instead of firing the turn and all you have is Ace high or whatever, you're really just giving yourself a free card/giving up. You're really not interested in seeing a showdown. You're either wanting your opponent to fold (bluffing) by betting, or you're just saying "you win".

The idea of checking behind with a made hand is what they're talking about here. This is because you want to get to showdown; however, you don't want to pay a lot to get there.

[QTip]

I have 2 things I'd like to discuss from this chapter:

1. On page 72, you talk about the trickiest exception of all, the balance between small pot control and punishing draws. You mention several things to consider after considering your opponents and your hand. The 3 you mention are:

1. Stack sizes
2. Pot size
3. Recent game flow.

I'm wondering if you could provide an example for each (however, I'm mostly interested in #3 - recent game flow)

2. I'm also interested in the topic of taking advantage of the pot control turn check and the defense against it. I had the following hand the other day that got me thinking about it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($133)
Hero ($105.30)
Button ($77.85)
SB ($204.60)
BB ($243.15)
UTG ($47)
UTG+1 ($136.35)
MP1 ($35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($36) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($36) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $187.6 (All-In)

Even tho this is a massive bet, the concept is there, and I thought what a powerful move this is.

[Aviston]

[ QUOTE ]
1. On page 72, you talk about the trickiest exception of all, the balance between small pot control and punishing draws. You mention several things to consider after considering your opponents and your hand. The 3 you mention are:

1. Stack sizes
2. Pot size
3. Recent game flow.

I'm wondering if you could provide an example for each (however, I'm mostly interested in #3 - recent game flow)

[/ QUOTE ]
I, too, am quite interested in hearing some more examples/details of this part of the chapter.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 things I'd like to discuss from this chapter:

1. On page 72, you talk about the trickiest exception of all, the balance between small pot control and punishing draws. You mention several things to consider after considering your opponents and your hand. The 3 you mention are:

1. Stack sizes
2. Pot size
3. Recent game flow.

I'm wondering if you could provide an example for each (however, I'm mostly interested in #3 - recent game flow)

[/ QUOTE ]

1. SPR=1. Pot is no longer small and so keeping it small is irrelevant.

1. SPR=16. Now you have room to make a bet without getting into commitment range and so would be more inclined to bet.

2. See examples for #1.

3. You have been raising and taking down many pots recently. Players are getting sick of you. You should be less inclined to bet a modest hand b/c it is more likely someone will play back at you (with a draw or a made hand) and force you to fold. Of course, if you think they'll pay you off or play back at you with a lot of hands weaker than yours, then you should bet. Give 'em some rope and let them hang themselves.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

2. I'm also interested in the topic of taking advantage of the pot control turn check and the defense against it. I had the following hand the other day that got me thinking about it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($133)
Hero ($105.30)
Button ($77.85)
SB ($204.60)
BB ($243.15)
UTG ($47)
UTG+1 ($136.35)
MP1 ($35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($36) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($36) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $187.6 (All-In)

Even tho this is a massive bet, the concept is there, and I thought what a powerful move this is.

[/ QUOTE ]


you'll see many high-stakes players doing just this. it's all math. if he has the best hand and you call, it's a disaster for you. if he is bluffing, folding is a disaster. you won't call that bet often. what could you have to call with other than 86? maybe a random hand here and there but c'mon. his bet is expected to succeed so often that the only bound on his making that play is you adjusting to it. then after a few of those you will likely overadjust and call the next one with one pair. that time he'll have the goods. Prahlad (Mahatma/Spirit Rock) used to do that all the time and was good at figuring out when it would take one or two pushes before you'd steel yourself for a big call. or at least he was good at it hu and shorthanded. longhanded he way overdid it for a while - i just waited for sets and checked/called all the way.

in microstakes opponents tend to either always have it there (or almost) or go way overboard using it and get clipped. so there's plenty of room to execute this strategy well. better be bankrolled for it though.

matt

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2. I'm also interested in the topic of taking advantage of the pot control turn check and the defense against it. I had the following hand the other day that got me thinking about it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($133)
Hero ($105.30)
Button ($77.85)
SB ($204.60)
BB ($243.15)
UTG ($47)
UTG+1 ($136.35)
MP1 ($35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($36) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($36) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $187.6 (All-In)

Even tho this is a massive bet, the concept is there, and I thought what a powerful move this is.

[/ QUOTE ]


you'll see many high-stakes players doing just this. it's all math. if he has the best hand and you call, it's a disaster for you. if he is bluffing, folding is a disaster. you won't call that bet often. what could you have to call with other than 86? maybe a random hand here and there but c'mon. his bet is expected to succeed so often that the only bound on his making that play is you adjusting to it. then after a few of those you will likely overadjust and call the next one with one pair. that time he'll have the goods. Prahlad (Mahatma/Spirit Rock) used to do that all the time and was good at figuring out when it would take one or two pushes before you'd steel yourself for a big call. or at least he was good at it hu and shorthanded. longhanded he way overdid it for a while - i just waited for sets and checked/called all the way.

in microstakes opponents tend to either always have it there (or almost) or go way overboard using it and get clipped. so there's plenty of room to execute this strategy well. better be bankrolled for it though.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your response on both of my questions. Good things to think about.

Thx.

[QTip]

One more thing I wanted to just bring up here and perhaps jog some thoughts is pot control when oop. Sometimes it seems to me that when oop the best way to control the pot is to simply bet small as opposed to checking (unless you're against an opponent who is very passive and likes checking or betting small). However, these small bets look so weak and they just cry for someone to raise them. I guess the only way to get around this is to sometimes bet small with your big hands waiting to punish a raise (at least against observant opponents).

Anyway, I'm just trying to think of ways to excute pot control when oop and it's obvious that oop sucks for so many reasons.

[inverted]

QTip I agree with you at low stakes OOP, people seem to be passive and not raise terribly often. But as to your other post I have seen the massive overbet on the river and sometimes even the turn alot this week.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($3.96)
Hero ($6.61)
MP ($5)
CO ($6.76)
Button ($4.76)
SB ($6.09)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $0.04.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.14</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.14, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($0.38) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.26</font>, CO calls $0.26.

Turn: ($0.90) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.6</font>, CO calls $0.60.

River: ($2.10) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO calls $6.76 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $8.86

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: CO wins $8.86. </font>

I've been trying to work out what to do about this/or how to use it in my game.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
One more thing I wanted to just bring up here and perhaps jog some thoughts is pot control when oop. Sometimes it seems to me that when oop the best way to control the pot is to simply bet small as opposed to checking (unless you're against an opponent who is very passive and likes checking or betting small). However, these small bets look so weak and they just cry for someone to raise them. I guess the only way to get around this is to sometimes bet small with your big hands waiting to punish a raise (at least against observant opponents).

[/ QUOTE ]


absolutely. e.g., pot is $35. you bet $10. he calls. one street down, pot's only 1.6x. now say you bet $20 on the turn. that's a tricky bet because a lot of players make small bets with the nuts, so opponent may get confused. if he calls, pot is $95. two streets down and you're not even at 3x / haven't put in an SPR of 1 yet.