Is movie "Munich" propoganda?

[SuitedSixes]

I think the fact that the twin towers are in the final scene of the movie pretty much answers your question.

[lehighguy]

The history is pretty straight foward. The UN partitioned the country in 1948. The side that was mostly Jewish residents was made into Isreal, and the side that most mostly Arabs was made into Palestine. The arabs didn't except this, and about 7 countries invaded Isreal. Isreal defeated them, and slightly expanded its borders. The land that was suppose to be Palestine was conquered by Jordan and Eqypt.

There were smaller conflicts until 1967 when there was a major war between Isreal and its neighbors. The terms of the earlier UN treaty were broken by Eqypt who allied itself with Syria and Jordan who all built up large military forces to invade Isreal. The goal was the same as it was in 1948 and other times, kill every Jew in Isreal. Once Eqypt moved troops into what was suppose to be the nuetral Sinai Isreal launched a devestating pre-emptive attack. Despite being vastly outnumbered they completely devestated the Arab invaders and in the process of driving them back took over the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Hieghts. This has roughly been the borders since then, even after an addition major war in 1973 that ended in a draw.

[twowords]

Well, I bolded everything that is definitely incorrect or significantly inaccurate to get you started. Also, starting your story perhaps 20 years earlier might give you a better picture of the situation. I know this is kind of a dick post on my part, but I guarentee that you are far, far away from a balanced account of the history of this conflict.

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The history is pretty straight foward. The UN partitioned the country in 1948. The side that was mostly Jewish residents was made into Isreal, and the side that most mostly Arabs was made into Palestine. The arabs didn't except this, and about 7 countries invaded Isreal. Isreal defeated them, and slightly expanded its borders. The land that was suppose to be Palestine was conquered by Jordan and Eqypt.

There were smaller conflicts until 1967 when there was a major war between Isreal and its neighbors. The terms of the earlier UN treaty were broken by Eqypt who allied itself with Syria and Jordan who all built up large military forces to invade Isreal. The goal was [to] the same as it was in 1948 and other times, kill every Jew in Isreal. Once Eqypt moved troops into what was suppose to be the nuetral Sinai Isreal launched a devestating pre-emptive attack. Despite being vastly outnumbered [note: Israel had significant military superiority over 3 adversaries] they completely devestated the Arab invaders and in the process of driving them back took over the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Hieghts. This has roughly been the borders since then, even after an addition major war in 1973 that ended in a draw.

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[mackthefork]

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Chechnyan separatists

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Russian terrorism is much worse, but we all don't like to bite off more than we can chew, right? The way I see it our definition of what is terror changes only with our own allegiances and not by the actions of the group or individuals involved, so if we can be convinced that their cause is unjust or trivial then they become terrorists. At the same time if they commit such acts against us personally or against our families then it takes a strong mind to see the justness of their cause, regardless only a hypocrit is going to chance his mind for this reason.

Mack

[Peter666]

Until people finally admit that killing is fun and that "causes" give meaning to meaningless lives, we have resolved nothing. It is the morality or immorality of the cause which determines whether the killing is justified.

I like the old French Papa in the movie. He was allowing his enemies to kill each other. That's smart. But he also did it with humanity and a taste of fine cuisine.

[lehighguy]

I don't know why you think they are incorrect. If you can provide links to the contrary go ahead. I'll go down the line:

Here's a basic reference point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

"The side that was mostly Jewish residents was made into Isreal, and the side that most mostly Arabs was made into Palestine."

At the time of partition the whole region was 1/3 Jewish and 2/3 Arab (remeber, huge numbers of Jews had immigrated to Isreal over the last 50 years, and more were comming). Isreal was to take 55% of available land, but the vast majority of it was uninhabited desert in the south.

From the map you can tell that the partition palestine is much larger then the current west bank and gaza strip. Most of Isreal proper was sparsely inhabited desert in the south that niether side used. The rest of Isreal roughly follows where the Jews had settlements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

"about 7 countries"
Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Eqypt, and Iraq provided the main thrust with the support of two other countries.

"The land that was suppose to be Palestine was conquered by Jordan and Eqypt."
It was, there is no dispute to be had here. Check the main source I listed at the beginning.

"The terms of the earlier UN treaty were broken by Eqypt who allied itself with Syria and Jordan who all built up large military forces to invade Isreal."

following the Egyptian closure of the Straits of Tiran (a casus belli, according to a possible interpretation of international law), a build up of troops along the Syrian border, expulsion of U.N. peacekeepers from the Sinai, stationing some 100,000 Egyptian troops at the peninsula, and a public announcement by Nasser that he intended to destroy Israel.

"The goal was [to] the same as it was in 1948 and other times, kill every Jew in Isreal."
These quotes would be easy to find. They won't be hidden, the constant call for the destruction of Isreal has been uttered in every Arab country since 1947. Recentely it was the loudly proclaimed official policy on Iran's democratically elected president.

But here's a quick one from 1947:
"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." (by Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, in anticipation of victory over the new Jewish state in 1948 by the five invading Arab armies.

"suppose to be the nuetral"
As part of the 1956 peace agreement. The UN stationed a peacekeeping force there. Eqypt expelled it and stationed its own troops there for an invasion.

"[note: Israel had significant military superiority over 3 adversaries]"
Isreal was outnumbered in manpower, tanks, equipment, economies and populations of its enemies. Eqypt had a large modern air force and nearly all the Arab states had been trained and supplied by the Soviet Union. Isreal was outnumbered and outgunned as it was in 1947-48, and succeeded only through its own cunning strategy and the complete incompetence and uncoordination of its foes.

"This has roughly been the borders since then"
You are correct in finding an error. Isreal returned the entire Sinia, far larger and more resource rich then the entire naiton of Isreal, in exchange for a peace treaty with Eqypt that they no doubt will honor until they see another chance to destroy Isreal entirely.

[andyfox]

I like that guy as an actor a lot. He played basically the same role, IIRC, in Ronin.

[Cyrus]

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Until people finally admit that killing is fun and that "causes" give meaning to meaningless lives, we have resolved nothing. It is the morality or immorality of the cause which determines whether the killing is justified.

[/ QUOTE ]Anyone here familiar with the character of the old man in the whorehouse, in Catch-22, conversing with the character of Art Garfunkel?

Methinks that's the spirit that could save humanity!

Actor Marcel Dalio

[Chris Alger]

The most recent book about the kill squads Mossad sent out after Munich, Striking Back, by Aaron J. Klein, apparently just came out on December 20. Klein asserts that nearly all of those Israel murdered did not plan and had nothing to do with Munich (to say nothing of the Moroccan waiter in Norway murdered in case of mistaken identity, a story that's been known for years). Indeed, the only Black September member directly involved in Munich wasn't killed until 1992. Klein also claims that Israel's operational goals had more to do with "deterrence" than actual revenge, although whether Israel sought to deter "terrorism" from those who weren't involved with terror rather than political activism by those who were politically active remains an open question. The book isn't moralistic or judgmental, according to the reviews, but raises questions about the nature and effect of assasination. Klein's bona fides appear sound: he's an Israeli journalist specializing in intelligence topics and reserve captain in IDF intelligence. He had unprecedented access to the Mossad guys who carried out the killings. In his NPR interview Klein points out that much of the movie is pure invention, such as the use of only one hit squad and the weirdly apolitical French family that supplies "Avner" with much of his intelligence.

The movie Munich isn't based on Klein's book but on another that came out in 1984 (republished last November), Vengeance, by right-wing Canadian journalist George Jonas. According to the Amazon blurb, it purports to be the account of only five "ordinary Israelis" (?) who embark on "a heroic endeavor . . . bought at a terrible cost to the idealistic volunteer agents themselves." Like the movie, it's basically a LaCarre tale "inspired" (as the movie puts it) by other facts.

I haven't read either book but just returned from the movie. There are several telling hints about the bigger and more important story that Klein reports but they're basically smothered by the spy movie stuff. Spielberg has claimed in interviews that he wants to raise questions about the cycle of Israeli-Palestinian violence, but other than some rhetorical dialogue it's hard to find where he did. After all, the victims in the movie are all psychotic Arab terrorists or their enablers, and the Israelis are reluctant and filled with angst about being sure to get the right guys and no civilians. Palestinians murder innocents, and Israelis murder those guys. It's the same old black-white propaganda line you see everywhere. There is one admission that maybe Israel shot some of the wrong guys, but the Mossad character who acknowledges it washes it away with the standard excuse, which goes uncontradicted: if the targets weren't involved with Munich they were involved with other specific terror acts.

All in all, Munich is just another layer of shmaltz on the ossified morality fable that constitutes popular understanding of the conflict, with all the trappings: Israel wants peace, never deliberately kills innocents, acts righteously if zealously in self-defense, cares not a fig for territorial aggrandizement, and so on. The notion that Munich bravely "humanizes" Palestinian terrorists to the point of challenging Israel is a joke.

Any real movie about this conflict would at least mention the following, all of which are forbidden in mainstream discourse:

1. Zionism was not a response to the holocaust but a direct offshoot of 19th century racial-supremacist colonialism. Israel remains a proud and determined ethnically supremacist state, unabashedly pledging perpetual adherence to the racist ideology of its founders.

2. Israel was born through an act of mass ethnic cleansing, precipitated by massacres, indiscriminate killings and rape, and throughout its history has been a serial cross-border aggressor.

3. Israel has killed more innocent civilians than all Arab terrorists in history and terrorism, defined as the deliberate use and threat of violence against civilians to accomplish political ends, has been a continuous Israeli practice since its founding and before. The worst offenders (Begin, Shamir, Sharon) rank among Israel's most powerful and respected leaders.

4. Israel has never accepted that the Arabs of Palestine are entitled to the same national right that Israel considers absolute, inviolable and even sacred for Jews: a national home in the land where they and their ancestors were born.

A movie in the 1980's, Little Drummer Girl, an actual LeCarre story, at least mentioned Deir Yasin. Don't expect Hollywood to do that anymore. Too many people who think we're at war with terrorism will call it treason.

[lehighguy]

1. Zionism was not a response to the holocaust but a direct offshoot of 19th century racial-supremacist colonialism. Israel remains a proud and determined ethnically supremacist state, unabashedly pledging perpetual adherence to the racist ideology of its founders.

So what, most ethnically monotone countries are like that. Try not being Japanese in Japan and see how far you get. Arabs with Isreal citizenship can own businesses, run for office, vote, and generally not be stoned in the street just for being a different race. How would a Jew fail in any Arab country in the world?

2. Israel was born through an act of mass ethnic cleansing, precipitated by massacres, indiscriminate killings and rape, and throughout its history has been a serial cross-border aggressor.

Isreal was born of a 1947 partition by the UN. Isreal accepted it, and Arabs didn't. There was a war where lots of people died and were misplaced. If the Arabs hadn't invaded there would be no war and no one would have died.

3. Israel has killed more innocent civilians than all Arab terrorists in history and terrorism, defined as the deliberate use and threat of violence against civilians to accomplish political ends, has been a continuous Israeli practice since its founding and before. The worst offenders (Begin, Shamir, Sharon) rank among Israel's most powerful and respected leaders.

There is a difference between targeting civilians and civilians getting caught in the cross fire. Isreal just wants peace, it goes after terrorists who surrond themselves with women and children for protection and to raise international backlash. If the Hamas doesn't want to have peoples houses bombed they have to stop operating out of peoples houses.

4. Israel has never accepted that the Arabs of Palestine are entitled to the same national right that Israel considers absolute, inviolable and even sacred for Jews: a national home in the land where they and their ancestors were born.

They did. They accepted the 1947 partition. Palestine was denied by Jordan and Eqypt from 1947-1967, not Isreal. Since then Isreal has made numerous attempts to have a Palestinian state, but the terrorism never stops. The reason is simple, the Palestinians don't want a two state solution. They want every Jew in the middle east dead. Isreal gave them Gaza and they use it to launch missles at them.