Craps: Any validity in precision shooting?

[Bazzito52]

I'm a newcomer to this board, but I'll put on my flameproof suit and offer a modest reply.

I am a long-time crapshooter and have read just about every book written on craps. I've read all of Scoblette's books, as well as Wong's volume. I'm always interested in anything that will help "get the edge" in a crap game, so I try to keep up with the latest in theories concerning the game. I've meant to attend a "controlled shooting" seminar, but just haven't been able to find the time or justify the expense.

Despite all of the claims of controlled shooting advocates, I believe they are unlikely at least two reasons. First, the seminars are frequently held on casino properties and, so far, the casinos have instituted no countermeasures against dice setters or controlled shooters.

Regarding the first point, you don't see outfits staging any blackjack card counting seminars at any casinos do you? If the casinos thought that controlled shooters could get even a small edge, they'd be banning crapshooters with regularity, NOT hosting classes in how to bust their chops. Now, you'll see the claim, "My methods are so effective that I've been banned from Las Vegas casinos." in some promotional materials. This might be true, but what they won't tell you is that, "I was such an obnoxious, abusive drunk that I've been kicked out of numerous joints even though no crapshooter in Nevada history has ever been banned for being an 'advantage player'." If the hotels host the seminars and don't ban them from playing, how effective do you think their methods can be?

Secondly, I have only seen one crap table in Las Vegas with any sort of device to stop a gaffed or controlled shot. I remember one place had a metal ridge running through the middle of the table (across the hardway bets on the layout) to stop a "blanket roll"), but other than that…nothing that I've noticed. If the casinos were experiencing a drop in the win don't you think that by now they have done something like change the makeup of the surface behind the pass line at the ends of the table to stop the "killing" of the dice after hitting the wall? Or how about installing bumpers of platforms of different heights at the ends of the table so the dice take another tumble after hitting the wall. Or how about making the players use dice cups? You do that in a Yahtzee game in your kitchen! Don't you think that the casinos would do that if they thought their bankroll was in jeopardy?

When I see the casinos change the craps table and procedures in even a fraction of the ways that they've done for blackjack, then I'll be a believer.

Until then, I'll take the word of Sam Grafstein, who wrote the very best book ever concerning the game 21 years ago The Dice Doctor, Revised & Expanded when he says, "Just roll the dice 20 inches. Give me ONE BOUNCE, and I'll personally book your bets all day." Granted Sam passed away before the advent of today's "controlled shooters," but absent any evidence to the contrary, I believe that he's still correct.

[SamIAm]

I know it's circumstantial, but remember that Thorp held his book-signings in casinos, and nobody doubts that blackjack can actually be advantage play. Casinos also continue to spread blackjack, even though there are some positive players out there.

Of course the countermeasures are weaker at craps than blackjack, but that could simply be the ease of learning to count vs learning to dice set.

Just because there are (at most) very few +EV dice-setters doesn't mean there aren't any. (And that's why we argue about this all the time on this board. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[AceOfClubs]

I know guys who doing this and doing well.

[rubixxcube]

IMO i don't think its easy to do it well enough to get an advantage, however i don't think it's Impossible, just unlikely.

http://crapspit.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=setting

Check out that link for all theories both ways on whether dice setting really works.

laslty on the whole thing about hosting gambling signings and classes at casinos. They are actually good for casinos whether they work correctly or not.
The reason being that probably over 90% of the people who try these things don't take the time to learn everything and rush into it and do it incorrectly that they more than make up for the people who do it so well that they win a little bit.

i can't find a link to it but on a special i saw on thorp they said that due to his book release the number of black jack players sky rocketed in the casinos as it helped increase the populairty of blackjack. Many novice counters applied his theories incorrectly and gained no advantage of the casino and simply lost money they would not have if they hadn't read his book.

[FireGirl]

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I'm a newcomer to this board, but I'll put on my flameproof suit and offer a modest reply...
If the casinos were experiencing a drop in the win don't you think that by now they have done something like change the makeup of the surface behind the pass line at the ends of the table to stop the "killing" of the dice after hitting the wall?

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Also a newcomer here - and a dice setting believer. My observation is that more and more casinos are resurfacing their tables to add more cushion, making it more difficult for controlled shooters to "drop" the dice off the back wall.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
Also a newcomer here - and a dice setting believer. My observation is that more and more casinos are resurfacing their tables to add more cushion, making it more difficult for controlled shooters to "drop" the dice off the back wall.

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This is simply adding credibility to the "dice setting" proponents -- By adding counter-measures, their offense is validated. Any idiot who's read Sun Tzu would know this response. And while most of the floor personnel in a casino are idiots -- there is management. The 1 out of 100 who understands strategy would do exactly as you expect, making it "more difficult" but not "impossible" -- wiping the sweat from their brow as they navigated and defended themselves from your tautological strategy.