the correlation between language, thoughts and intelligence

[captZEEbo]

there's definitely a correlation b/w bilingual and intelligence.

[Popinjay]

There are many artful words of other languages that I have heard that mean something you cannot really express that well in english. This means to me that english is sort of a simple language. As well, different structures of languages really make a difference I believe in how people think. I mean, I can only have cognitive thoughts in my own language. It's like, my brain speaks English, and not other languages. So other people who think in a language with different structures are thinking in a different way at the base of thought than me.

I'm tired and watching the Simpons movie on bootleg so I'll stop now. Something that's really funny that is sort of related to this topic is that I'm watching a german copy so at the beginning it said in the intro sequences, DIE SIMPSONS, not THE SIMPSONS, and I thought that was put in there for some funny reason. Turns out it was because it was the German version, but if they did that for the real one it would be funny imo.

[MatthewRyan]

Kurosh, u seem like a smart guy, wtf are u SSing for?

[kurosh]

For my emotional and mental health

[Sciolist]

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There are many artful words of other languages that I have heard that mean something you cannot really express that well in english. This means to me that english is sort of a simple language. As well, different structures of languages really make a difference I believe in how people think. I mean, I can only have cognitive thoughts in my own language. It's like, my brain speaks English, and not other languages. So other people who think in a language with different structures are thinking in a different way at the base of thought than me.

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There're also English words that describe concepts that some other languages don't. They're generally technical concepts, but that doesn't really lessen the language.

I know a few bi/trilinguals, and they tell me that they think in the language they were most recently talking in. I once spent so long learning French that I was using random French words in my thinking.

What I find interesting is whether people act the same if they speak one language vs. another? You presumably use different pathways in your brain to access the different knowledge, does that affect anything else?

[MicroBob]

Bilingualness is weird.

I think my bilingual GF mostly acts the same whichever language she is speaking.
Maybe a little different with Spanish but that might be as much a cultural/family thing than anything.
People from Peru and Venezuela are a bit different than people from the U.S. afterall.
And people act differently with their parents or brother than they do with their BF or other friends.

It's funny listening to her and her brother chat on the phone. They both grew up in South America but both took a ton of english classes and have slightly accented but otherwise mostly perfect english.
His accent is stronger than hers.
Anyway, they alternate between english and spanish from one sentence to the next a lot of the time.
Usually has nothing to do with trying to keep part of the conversation private or anything like that. It's just comfortable for them.
If she's speaking in english, and then comes to a word that comes to her in spanish then she switches. And they'll yap in spanish until they get to a point where she first thinks of the english version of a word.

She does this with her best friend also.

Obviously her instincts prevent her from doing anything like that with me. She has VERY rarely said "si" instead of "yes" around me and that is about it.
Same thing mostly with her parents on the phone who speak no english but she does occasionally interject an english phrase with them like "exactly" or "I don't know" instead of the spanish phrase and probably doesn't realize it.

What's weird is that she can only do it instinctually.
If I ask her "how do you say such-and-such in spanish" she has to really stop and think and it's like she temporarily can't access that part of her brain.
Even for really simple phrases that I know she knows because, well, Spanish his her native language afterall.

So she can go back and forth when chatting with her brother just fine.
But when she's just talking with me then her brain shifts to english-only mode.
If the pressure is on and she has to think of spanish for "turkey" or "fish" or something insanely simple she occasionally draws a total blank.

And completely forget about confirming the correctness of a phrase with her.
If I say, "Is such-and-such how you say, 'The blue cars are on the road'?" she'll think about it and then say "Yes, that's right."
Then she'll stop and think, "Wait, that's not right at all. The word order is all messed up. It's like this."

Thus, even though her spanish and english are both close to perfect she is pretty much the worst Spanish teacher ever because of how her brain accesses each language or something.

[Pyromaniac]

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Anyway, they alternate between english and spanish from one sentence to the next a lot of the time.


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Probably an obscure reference, but Nabokov's Ada or Ardor: A Family Chronicle explores this quite a bit, as I recall, discussing siblings who grow up *tri*lingual and who are able to switch mid-stream from one language to another to another. And understand each other perfectly while anyone listening is probably lost.

Wiki also lists this book with the tag "Category: Incest in Fiction", but that's another story. So to speak.

***

In my experience with language, I've seen where the second language bleeds into any later language learning. So if you learn some French or Spanish in high school, then later learn something of another language, the French/Spanish will bleed into the third language.

But not the first language; you never start popping in English words--or at least without knowing it. So often struggling with limited vocab you throw in the English word and hope for the best...

It's as if there's an area in the brain that's first-language reserved, and then another area for all-other-languages. The two areas don't mix, but whatever's in them, does. And people who grow up with several languages have them all mixed together (but in the first area rather than the second).

[wtfsvi]

This is a really interesting thread.

If I stay in an English speaking country for a couple of days, I start thinking mostly in English. And I feel like I'm a different person when I switch to English mode. I'm much more extrovert, for example. This does of course not necessarily have anything to do with the languages (Norwegian and English) in themselves, but but I find it to be an interesting phenomenon.

[Xibalba]

Language only inhibits/influences thoughts in as much as you forget the difference between word and that which you speak of. I imagine, though this is certainly a rabbit out of my hat, that growing up billingual helps you because your ability to express yourself internally is "doubled" (not exactly accurate word, but whatever).
Also, the flexibility of being able to swith from one language to another allows you to formulate your own internal language. I do not mean a completely new alien thing inside, but that you can sort of formulate codewords, expressions that simply free what it is you are thinking, and so, nearly literally, let you think "outside the box".

However, I'd be wary of using "intelligence" as a key-word here. Though I agree intelligence is enhanced (and may be a pre-requisite for the succesful internalization of other languages), I think the word carries connotations that make this discussion about something else entirely.
I'd use something like "brilliance", but not in any judgemental way, more like how artists think internally, or great scientists. They have a way of expressing themselves internally that more often than not make them sound completely wacko, but anyone can realize that the problem is that they can't translate what they think inside to the people outside. I think that's what growing up billingual helps you with, the ability to start thinking less restrained, with the added bonus of giving you more "linguistic" tools as to how to explain yourself with other people.

[Blarg]

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There are many artful words of other languages that I have heard that mean something you cannot really express that well in english. This means to me that english is sort of a simple language.


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It is natural that one language will not have some nuances that another does. That doesn't make one language more complex than another.

The size of the English language dwarfs most, because it encompasses so many words or derivations from so many other languages. English originally came from germanic languages, and was conquered by Vikings, Romans, and French, each of which made enormous contributions to the language.

Those contributions made for far more fine distinctions in language than other languages tend to have. Words were adopted where they were needed to make those distinctions.

Prejudice toward one's mother tongue is natural, and many languages are interesting and beautiful. But English is the world standard in the financial and scientific fields and culturally too. It is a mess of conflicting rules and bizarre exceptions, but its position as the America of languages -- the one that has prospered by accepting all mongrels -- has given it an unprecedented and unmatched vitality and utility.