is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?

[Paul2432]

In a cash game, the idea that there will be a "better spot" later is a terrible rational for making a play. You should make whatever play is most profitable in a given situation regardless of what might happen on a future hand. I can think of only two excpetions: 1) You are on a very limited bankroll and the game is extremely soft. In that case passing on marginally profitable high risk plays might be good idea. 2) In a capped buy-in game if you and a very bad player have a large stack compared to the buy-in it might be a good idea to fold a marginally profitable hand that risked your stack so you can take the bad players stack in a later hand (of course there is no guarantee, he could lose it to another player or leave the table).

That said, in the situation you've given, it's tough to say. If players are really loose, I'd probably call.

Paul

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, in the situation you've given, it's tough to say. If players are really loose, I'd probably call.


[/ QUOTE ]

He says they are "super nitty". I guess they're all folding either way, but I'd like ATs to pay the max to take his shot.

[mvdgaag]

Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!

Of course you have a chance to be an overwhelming chip leader one in six times. But especially in the early stages this doesn't help you much, since you will have a lot of hands to play and have a small chance to keep the chip-advantage you have now...

In a cashgame however you should take all the smallest edges unless you are on a small BR (for the same reasons as in a tournament). You can lose and buyin again, but your long term expectation is highest if you take all these small edges.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB. You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small. Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

[ QUOTE ]

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


[/ QUOTE ]
This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very thin edge. Could you explain how you would ever know that you had that edge?

[ QUOTE ]
You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small.

[/ QUOTE ]

For good reason though. Calculating your equity on the fly against players you have only seen play a few hands isn't easy. And what you think is a good edge against their range can be a very poor edge, or no edge at all, because you misjudged their range, which is quite easy to do. And vice versa.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite is much more often true. Players take small edges thinking they are much bigger. After all, what else is a player doing who pushes over a raise with a raggy ace?

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind explaining how we can know that it's not linear? I understand the theory in a tourney, but how does it work for cash?

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

[ QUOTE ]

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


[/ QUOTE ]
This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm the chimpanzee, but I found the post very good. I think players who say "I'm passing up x edge because these players are poor and I can win more later" just don't understand that part of being a poor player is passing up x edge!