Six Max Baby Steps

[deception5]

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But being PASSIVE, is not good.

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Just to nitpick a little, the key here is selective aggression. In the right spots aggression will win pots regardless of cards. But when things become heads up after the flop (which is extremely common in 6-max) often it is best to let your opponent keep betting while you casually call down and raise the turn or river. This is particularly true where a flop raise would knock out an opponent with a worse hand but keep one around with a better hand or when you are up against a player who will bluff consistantly.

[MrWookie]

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All 6-max players should also be constantly reading HUSH. It's a great fourm with lots of advice.

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I'm sorry, but I'm going to keep picking on you and find one more thing to disagree with. This one is pretty minor, though. I certainly hope you don't think I'm coming across as mean. I'll say instead that all 2+2ers should be reading HUSH constantly. It's a great forum with lots of advice on lots of marginal situations you see every day, no matter how many people are sitting at the table with you.

I'm glad you're taking the plunge into 6 max play. Best of luck to you, unless you're at my table [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[MacGuyV]

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later positions in full ring (check out Ollie's hand in the second thread, too - not only his good play, but his last sentence).

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Without question he played the hand correctly, but I don't know if I agree with the last sentence, and frankly it sounds results-oriented (Ollie can chime in if I'm wrong). Playing hands like that in position against passive, predictable players lets you get good value when you're ahead and get away easily when you're behind.

Didn't mean to nitpick - nice post.

[MrWookie]

Ah. I highlighted his last sentence not as something I agree with, but as a common statement that is exactly opposite to everything I wrote in this thread. He made a beautiful play, but he was hesitant about it because of a combination of being results oriented and hesitant in marginal situations.

[@bsolute_luck]

Great post Wookie! once i get the bankroll, i should venture into 6-max because i can't seem to get the "value bet the river" concept to sink in and i'm aggressive as a wet noodle [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[deception5]

Great post by the way!

I think I went through pretty much every stage you mentioned (raising A2o in any position, calling raises with bad cards, etc). It is truly amazing how much playing these games will impact your overall game. I've played about 6k hands so far and I would say without a doubt it has improved my hand reading, reading opponents, position play, heads up play and how to play short handed pots. Also when the full ring games start to get shorthanded you will almost always clean up - your opponents are often clueless as to what changes to make. You will learn how to stop playing your cards for what they are and to start playing against your opponents. And your full ring game will benefit as well. A few tips if you are just starting out:

1.) Take note of the kind of game you are in. 6-max games vary greatly from one to the next. In some everyone limps and you can limp along with many hands you'd otherwise fold (these become very much like full ring). In some you can steal the blinds every time you are on the button or CO. It is far more important than it is in full ring to figure out what kinds of players you are against. When I first started I played every hand the same and was trying to bluff out calling stations with ace high. They'd show their bottom pair and drag pot after pot.

2.) Along the same lines, I would recommend reducing the number of tables you are playing. I started off trying to play 3 at a time and this was too much for me. 2 is about right because I feel I can get good reads on all 10 (max) of my opponents.

3.) Try not to limp unless someone limps in front of you (the exception being hands like pocket pairs in a passive game). You are basically announcing that you have a weak hand. Raising can often buy you the pot (either right then or with a flop bet when everyone misses). Also when a weak player limps in front of you raising will often get it heads up and giving you position.

4.) Don't play too tight. If you try to play exactly the same as you play in a ring game you will be a marginal winner at best (unless you are a loose ring game player!). Hands like JTs are strong in 6-max.

5.) Throw away the low suited connectors unless it's going to be an unraised family pot (obviously it's ok in the blinds if you're getting good odds). Heads up you are already starting with a pretty big disadvantage (best advice I heard of was from one of sthief09's articles - think of 76 suited as 7 high and see how much you like it!).

6.) Pairs and aces go up in value. AK is often good enough to see the river unimproved (since if your opponent doesn't pair you win).

7.) As was already mentioned, don't get crazy aggressive. J4o is still junk, A2o is typically not worth raising unless you are opening from the button. VP$IP is usually around 20-30%.

8.) When only 2 of you see the flop don't always assume you are way behind if you miss. There's a good chance your opponent missed as well.

9.) If there are fewer than 6 players, pretend the first couple have folded.

A few more articles:

Jason Pohl is frequently mentioned in the heads up/shorthanded forum and his articles are here:
http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/a...index.htm#pohl

And some good shorthanded (and full ring) 2+2 archive articles listed here:
http://www.poker.favos.nl/

[MrWookie]

That's definitely good advice about playing fewer tables. I thought about including that, but in the interest of focus, I left it out.

Edit: And the second link is another good collection that I wish I had included.

[olliejen]

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later positions in full ring (check out Ollie's hand in the second thread, too - not only his good play, but his last sentence).

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Without question he played the hand correctly, but I don't know if I agree with the last sentence, and frankly it sounds results-oriented (Ollie can chime in if I'm wrong). Playing hands like that in position against passive, predictable players lets you get good value when you're ahead and get away easily when you're behind.

Didn't mean to nitpick - nice post.

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i'm no authority by any means and you gents may be right that i'm being too results-oriented. my belief was/is that when the pot is small and my equity thin or unknown so it's not a mistake of great magnitude.

i mostly agree with your post; the small edit i'd make is that you can get good value when you're ahead and stay ahead.

a large part of my struggles when i went from .5/1 to 1/2 was that with tighter, more passive opponents, it was harder to get a sense of the likelihood that your equity has changed from street to street. for some LPP's, a call on the flop is enough to warrant a turn-check and river fold UI. for others, a call means nothing and villain is peeling. w/ a LPP you haven't observed closely or have that many hands with; how do you get away from it when there's no pushback?

now some might say, "well, that is true of any pocket pair" however, the higher the pocket pair, the better it fares on more boards vs. an unknown hand.

it may be a mistake to pass up these situations, but given the pot size i think it's a small mistake & i'm more than willing to admit that i just may not be good enough to make those holdings profitable yet.

until i get there, i generally use pot size + my crude but developing sense of what my equity is as my guide.

in the interest of full-disclosure, i will admit that i'm a horrid HU player and only slightly less horrid SH-player. my full-ring game is slightly less terrible than that, but always hopefully getting better. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

edit: fantastic post, btw Wookie! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MrWookie]

I agree with you when you say that in the hand of yours I pointed out, the EV was very slim. However, given your typical fold equity in these situations combined with the fact that your hand may actually be best, this is a great way to play in that situation. People on these forums are willing to cap a 3-way flop on a flush draw holding only slim a 2% equity edge. People here tout a 4 BB/100 win rate as spectacular, but if you compare 0.04 BB per hand to the amount of money you have to put in to win that much, that is a very slim edge indeed. Poker, (limit cash games, at least) is a game of slim edges until you've found a way to get AA every hand. The more slim edges you can exploit, the more successful your poker is going to be. I'm touting six max play here because of how frequently profitable marginal situations like yours come up. If you feel you're missing out, giving up, or misplaying some marginal situations, that's fine. I screw marginal situations up all the time. That's what I'm doing here: reading up and figuring out more of them. Running away from (folding) marginal situations, though, is only going to hold you back as you move up in limits where the big, easy situations don't pay off as well.

Great response, and I hope you don't mind my picking on that hand of yours. Now, to go and actually work on my game. It sure needs it.

[Scotty.]

Great post, you may have inspired me to sign up for Absolute myself and get into some 6-max bonus clearing there. What limits of shorthanded play do they have?