WA/WB with second pair good kicker?

[Bona]

I think since villain didn't raise preflop we are ahead here a lot. I would raise the flop and see what he does with it. This is the level I play at most and I see lots of people leading out here that missed the flop.

If he reraises or donk/leads the turn we are probably behind.

[bravos1]

This is not WA/WB! Even if he has an Ace, you have ~6.5 outs on the flop as long as it is not AK/AQ.

[jeanbaptiste36]

Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

[jeanbaptiste36]

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[ QUOTE ]
Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

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Just to be nit, I did the calculation. If it's the BD that adds 1.5 outs then that's wrong because the BD is singlesided. We first need one of four cards and then another on of four cards on the river. Not one of eight and yet another one of eight. That draw comes in 1.4% of the time so half an out.

[Nick D]

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Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mustn't we discount based on the fact that we can't get the upper end of the BDSD? It is a gapless BDSD, which would normally yield 1.5 outs on the flop, but that is normally for a TJQ where we could get either the KA or 89 to complete, am I right?

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I think since villain didn't raise preflop we are ahead here a lot.

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Bona, he has a 0 PFR... OP - how many hands are these stats compiled from? Either way, while I don't disagree that we could be ahead in the hand, his PF play cannot tell us much about his hand.

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I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

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Ultimately, I agree with this. You could call down as well if you've seen a few of his holdings (he'll bet down w/ MPWK), but this way you save 1.5BB and folding is a viable option considering the pot isn't huge or anything.

[JJack]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not WA/WB! Even if he has an Ace, you have ~6.5 outs on the flop as long as it is not AK/AQ.

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oh u right ...
so best here is raise passive player?
If he would be agressive player wouldent be better just call down?