Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing

[TheEngineer]

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As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

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I was going to ask about this.

I always read/hear Christians (not all of them, obviously) rail against gambling because it's a sin. So there's nothing in the Bible about it at all? This is all just made up?

I have never understood why people think betting money on a card game (or for some, even simply PLAYING a card game) is immoral. If there was something in the Bible about it, I could at least understand fundamentalists having an problem with it.

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Yes, they made it up. Fundamentalist Christians have a long history of basing morality not on the Bible, but on their ideas of what seems right and wrong. For example, some Baptists believe drinking one beer is sinful, yet Jesus himself made wine (a big miracle of His). And, He didn't make it for a sacrament. Rather, He made it for a PARTY!!! Seems inconsistent with the beliefs of people who claim to be his followers. Some fundamentalists think dancing is a sin. And, of course, many objected to all rock music. As for gambling, there isn't a word about it. Here's an interesting article that provides about as much justification as is possible from the Bible: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_93.htm#whySin . It's rather convoluted in terms of logic, but it essentially claims that the issue is that gambling is greed-driven. Supposedly, the "greed" is in wanting something for nothing.

One objection I have to this is that I think it contradicts the Biblical story "Parable of the Talents", where making money not from sweat and labor, but from interest and profit, is praised. See Matthew 25:14-30 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Talents . Other verses in the Bible instruct us to use our gifts to the maximum.

So, am I sinfully greedy if I use my poker skills to make an equivalent hourly income to what I make at my day job (if that were the case)? After all, if the money's the same, is it greed? Am I sinfully greedy for working overtime? Is it sinful if my opponent derives enjoyment from playing poker while I derive income? In that case, it's win-win. I think the answer is "no". Furthermore, gambling existed in Jesus' day. Why no word of it being wrong?

[Landlord79]

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I always read/hear Christians (not all of them, obviously) rail against gambling because it's a sin. So there's nothing in the Bible about it at all? This is all just made up?

I have never understood why people think betting money on a card game (or for some, even simply PLAYING a card game) is immoral. If there was something in the Bible about it, I could at least understand fundamentalists having an problem with it.

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Yes, they made it up. Fundamentalist Christians have a long history of basing morality not on the Bible, but on their ideas of what seems right and wrong. For example, some Baptists believe drinking one beer is sinful, yet Jesus himself made wine (a big miracle of His). And, He didn't make it for a sacrament. Rather, He made it for a PARTY!!! <font color="blue"> QFT, but it does say "not to be drunk", some people can't stop at just a few drinks, hence the bad reputation of alcohol. I myself like a glass of wine from time to time, but I have full control over myself in this issue and it isn't a problem for me. Some try to impose limitations for the whole of society because of their need for everyone to abide by the same "rules" as they do, this isn't correct. Everyone has their own stuggles with temptation. A full reading of the writings of Paul will clarify this issue for anyone interesting in taking the time to read it, but it is much too indepth to explore on this thread. </font> Seems inconsistent with the beliefs of people who claim to be his followers. As for gambling, there isn't a word about it. <font color="blue"> QFT, I looked </font> Here's an interesting article that provides about as much justification as is possible from the Bible: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_93.htm#whySin . It's rather convoluted in terms of logic, but it essentially claims that the issue is that gambling is greed-driven. Supposedly, the "greed" is in wanting something for nothing.

One objection I have to this is that I think it contradicts the Biblical story "Parable of the Talents", where making money not from sweat and labor, but from interest and profit, is praised. See Matthew 25:14-30 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Talents . Other verses in the Bible instruct us to use our gifts to the maximum. <font color="blue"> You're so off on your interpretation of this parable that I can't even agree with you. Interest was the minimum that God requires from us, which the metaphor translates as sitting on our hands and not telling anyone about Christ and keeping God's love bottled up inside. This parable has plenty of meaning in the physical, but it should be read for the spiritual. </font>

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I am a Christian and my church supports and is based on a lot of the same beliefs of FOF, I don't agree with them on this issue because it is trying to put limitations on the whole of society because some can't handle their gambling. I think what Dr Dobson does is awesome, and he is right in thinking that as the family deteriorates, so does the morality of the society. But morality doesn't create disciples of Christ, Christ wants a relationship with us, and that relationship creates morality and cures us of our addictions and gives us true life.

Playing poker allows me to win some "monies" and have the occassional opportunity to minister to someone about Christ. I'm not a you have to quit sinning now before you can be saved Christian, I'm one who encourages you to get saved then let Christ pull out what he needs to pull out from you Christian. I don't judge, nor will I. Christ takes us as we are then makes us better.

I guess what I want to say is, Dr Dobson has done more for our country than many of you will ever think about doing, and just because he has stepped on our toes with this one issue doesn't make him a villain. His beliefs are Biblical and his intentions are good, so we don't need to attack him, we just need to defend what is important to us, while keeping things in their proper perspective.

[questions]

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I guess what I want to say is, Dr Dobson has done more for our country than many of you will ever think about doing, and just because he has stepped on our toes with this one issue doesn't make him a villain. His beliefs are Biblical and his intentions are good, so we don't need to attack him, we just need to defend what is important to us, while keeping things in their proper perspective.

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No offense, but this paragraph is nonsense. His involvement in politicking with regard to online gambling should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's paid any attention to his active involvement in the political process, and I'm sure he's just getting started. Before you know it, we won't be able to dance in public or wear cotton/rayon blends, or get divorced, injunctions against which are also in the Bible.

[Landlord79]

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I guess what I want to say is, Dr Dobson has done more for our country than many of you will ever think about doing, and just because he has stepped on our toes with this one issue doesn't make him a villain. His beliefs are Biblical and his intentions are good, so we don't need to attack him, we just need to defend what is important to us, while keeping things in their proper perspective.

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No offense, but this paragraph is nonsense. His involvement in politicking with regard to online gambling should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's paid any attention to his active involvement in the political process, and I'm sure he's just getting started. Before you know it, we won't be able to dance in public or wear cotton/rayon blends, or get divorced, injunctions against which are also in the Bible.

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Okay, a few more examples, but if he's right about Christ being the only way to heaven, and therefore the judgment of God to come later, we will really wish that we had listened to him more because the 80 years that we have on this earth is nothing compared to eternity.

Are you saying that Christians should just lay down and not defend themselves from the attack of this changing world? If gays and lesbians can fight for their rights to be married, is it wrong for the church to fight to keep the right of having prayer in schools?

[Sephus]

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if he's right about Christ being the only way to heaven, and therefore the judgment of God to come later, we will really wish that we had listened to him more

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if the muslims are right, you're going to really wish you hadn't let your wife/daughter/sister show her face in public.

[Landlord79]

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if he's right about Christ being the only way to heaven, and therefore the judgment of God to come later, we will really wish that we had listened to him more

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QFT... LOL, good point
if the muslims are right, you're going to really wish you hadn't let your wife/daughter/sister show her face in public.

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[RoundGuy]

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Are you saying that Christians should just lay down and not defend themselves from the attack of this changing world? If gays and lesbians can fight for their rights to be married, is it wrong for the church to fight to keep the right of having prayer in schools?

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We are in this world, not of this world. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's...etc.

Please show me how it is Biblical for a Christian to get involved in political (worldly) issues. It isn't. James Dobson is a disgrace to all true Christians, with his political agenda.

[Skallagrim]

To the poster who believed that Rev. Dobson has done more good for this country than any of us, I ask you to rethink things.

I beleive Dobson has done more harm to both religion and politics than just about anyone else in recent memory.

Mixing religion and politics invariably produces bad politics and worse religion. Dont believe me? Consider Iran.

Let me try and illustrate the point by way of a parable. Most of the christian-political types are upset about gay rights. They want laws making gay marriage illegal, and stopping gays from doing a number of things. They believe it is right to push this agenda politically. My reading of Jesus' trachings leads me to the opposite conclusion. I think Jesus would demand not mere tolerance of gays but their complete and total acceptance. Put aside the theological debate and assume for a minute I convince the majority of people I am right. Am I then entitled to have a law passed making it illegal to not admit gays ANYWHERE? In other words, it would be illegal for you to NOT admit them to your church AND you have to allow them to all positions of authority and admit them to all sacraments. You go to jail otherwise. If you respond by saying the state shouldnt legislate in this area of personal beliefs, how can you go on asking the state to legislate against others' personal beliefs based on your persona beliefs?

Abortion is another example - if the state has the legal authority to ban abortions, does it not then also have the right to MANDATE abortions (as in China)? Maybe the state shouldnt have the right to interfere in pregnancy at all, eh?

Is that not enough to convince you that there should always be seperation of church and state? Either the state legislates your religion or the state stays out of your religion. Seems an easy choice...

Our founding fathers got it right and Jesus would agree, I think.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."

If only Rev. Dobson were that good of a christian.

Skallagrim

[Landlord79]

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To the poster who believed that Rev. Dobson has done more good for this country than any of us, I ask you to rethink things.

I beleive Dobson has done more harm to both religion and politics than just about anyone else in recent memory.

Mixing religion and politics invariably produces bad politics and worse religion. Dont believe me? Consider Iran.

Let me try and illustrate the point by way of a parable. Most of the christian-political types are upset about gay rights. They want laws making gay marriage illegal, and stopping gays from doing a number of things. They believe it is right to push this agenda politically. My reading of Jesus' trachings leads me to the opposite conclusion. I think Jesus would demand not mere tolerance of gays but their complete and total acceptance. Put aside the theological debate and assume for a minute I convince the majority of people I am right. Am I then entitled to have a law passed making it illegal to not admit gays ANYWHERE? In other words, it would be illegal for you to NOT admit them to your church AND you have to allow them to all positions of authority and admit them to all sacraments. You go to jail otherwise. If you respond by saying the state shouldnt legislate in this area of personal beliefs, how can you go on asking the state to legislate against others' personal beliefs based on your persona beliefs?

Abortion is another example - if the state has the legal authority to ban abortions, does it not then also have the right to MANDATE abortions (as in China)? Maybe the state shouldnt have the right to interfere in pregnancy at all, eh?

Is that not enough to convince you that there should always be seperation of church and state? Either the state legislates your religion or the state stays out of your religion. Seems an easy choice...

Our founding fathers got it right and Jesus would agree, I think.
<font color="blue"> "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."
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If only Rev. Dobson were that good of a christian.

Skallagrim

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I don't have time to respond to this, but you have completely missed the boat. This is referring to taxes and respect as an authority.

Separation of church and state works to protect religion, much like a corporation protects it's owners. The Founding Fathers were mostly Christian and wanted their Christian rights protected from the government. It was explained better above by someone else.

I may not be a sinless man, but I would invite you to walk a day w/ me and see the life that I live if you think that all Christians are hypocrites.

The basic law of the Bible is the law of love. God is forgiving and loving, but He is also Holy. I won't open that up to people who have never pondered and meditated on pure holiness, but if Christians don't stand up for their rights, then soon all their rights will be taken from them, just like anyone else who sits idly by.

And also, Jesus would love all gays w/o loving their actions. He takes us as we are, but doesn't expect us to stay the same. The Old and New Testament both point to homosexuality as sin, God, being holy, destroyed Sodom and Gamora because of this sin. Anyone Christian who says differently doesn't believe that ALL of God's word is true and therefore is not a true Christian, but a hypocrit, living a lie.

I have many friends who are unsaved and living in sin, I don't judge them and I accept them as they are, but like God, I hope for the salvation of their souls and the repentance of their sins.

May God bless you, I'm going home.

[Richas]

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Please show me how it is Biblical for a Christian to get involved in political (worldly) issues. It isn't. James Dobson is a disgrace to all true Christians, with his political agenda.

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Not being religious I feel like I'm intruding here especially as I am against what Dobson says most of the time but the incident with the money lenders, or the stoning of the adulteress, could be used as examples in faour of religious political activism (not that I welcome it myself mind).