Ron Paul and the Singularity

[AlexM]

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I'm with tomd here -- there seems to be an *apparent* tension between consequentialism and deontology in the ACist camp; if ACists are to whole-heartedly embrace Ron Paul (and it sure seems like that's happening on this forum), then it would seem to imply that the normative moral and ethical claims ACists are fond of making are at least somewhat meaningless, given how readily they abandon them if it means "a step in the right direction" or some face time on CNN or whatever other justification is used for supporting Paul.

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Not at all. I'm a moral ACist, but I've said many times that I prefer to live in reality than in fantasy land. This means I'm going to fight for ways to make the world better rather than do absolutely nothing like all these "OMG voting is immoral!" ACists. I will vote for Ron Paul. This doesn't mean I completely support Ron Paul, what he will do or his policies. It's entirely a "lesser evil" scenario. Is the lesser evil still evil? Of course, but if I know that by not choosing to be stolen from I'm going to be to murdered, guess what I'm "choosing"? The lesser evil winning is the only thing I can hope to have happen that might improve my freedom.

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I agree but the danger is that this is the same argument that will cause people to vote for Rudy Giuliani the authoritarian over Hillary Clinton the communist...

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No doubt, and I concern myself more with convincing people that there's no lesser evil when it comes to (most) Republicans and Democrats. Vote Libertarian, or Green, or Constitution. These are truly lesser evils. People who are anti-state and think one of the big two parties is a lesser evil are largely deluding themselves IMO, but people like Ron Paul really are lesser evils.

[AlexM]

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I kinda wish this had been in it's own thread rather than tacked onto some nonsense about living forever I wonder if iron would change the title of this thread.

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You wish you hadn't hijacked Metric's thread, so you want Iron to make the hijacking complete? WTF?

[tomdemaine]

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Ok. But when you vote for Ron Paul, that X is your signature on the social contract that the statists keep going on about.

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No it's not.

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You're saying that certain forms of taxation are ok

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No you're not.

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you're saying that governments can do better than the market in some areas

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No again!

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you're saying that voting for the lesser of two evils is a worthwhile choice

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If the ldifference between evils is extreme enough, it is. Could you seriously not choose between say FDR and Hitler? I could easily choose FDR there and I think he was one of our worst presidents.

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and that democracy can work.

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Not really, but debatable.

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You're conceding the whole game

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This is backwards. The people who refuse to vote are the ones conceding the whole game.

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and giving up the only bargaining chip we have, the moral high ground

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Nope. Haven't given up the moral high ground. You only think this because you think voting means a lot more than it really does.

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for a fools hope that Ron Paul can somehow cause a change in the US

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He has a better chance than you.

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I don't understand how you're not saying democracy can work. You're voting for a guy because he achieves some of your goals through the system of taxation and the use of force. Thats exactly what every statist is doing you may have different goals but the principle is the same.

You're saying I support a man who supports taxation. How is that not a support for taxation?

I have the chance to convince people that aggression is wrong in all it's forms Ron Paul can never do that because he's advocated aggression. Who's got a better chance at changing the world for the better?

[Richard Tanner]

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Who's got a better chance at changing the world for the better?

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The man that can reach millions given our current media set-up? Sticking to your guns means little if no one can hear you.

Cody

[tomdemaine]

Ok so PVN is forcing 100 people on the street to buy 10 of his $200 hotdogs with free wedgie a week. I come along and say if you support me I promise to only charge you $10 a hotdog and I'll only force you to buy 5 a week and I won't give you the wedgie but you have to actively support me and at least 51 people on the street have to sign a petition installing me as the new hotdog vendor. You have the option of either signing me in thereby legitimizing my status as official hotdog vendor because I'll have a document to point to and say see these people do want my hotdogs, or you can keep PVN around but all the time point out how unfair and evil the idea of forcing hotdogs on anyone is and try to convince enough people to stand up to PVN that it's not worth him trying to force them on you anymore.

[Richard Tanner]

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Ok so PVN is forcing 100 people on the street to buy 10 of his $200 hotdogs with free wedgie a week. I come along and say if you support me I promise to only charge you $10 a hotdog and I'll only force you to buy 5 a week and I won't give you the wedgie but you have to actively support me and at least 51 people on the street have to sign a petition installing me as the new hotdog vendor. You have the option of either signing me in thereby legitimizing my status as official hotdog vendor because I'll have a document to point to and say see these people do want my hotdogs, or you can keep PVN around but all the time point out how unfair and evil the idea of forcing hotdogs on anyone is and try to convince enough people to stand up to PVN that it's not worth him trying to force them on you anymore.

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Kind of a false analogy (100 people can kill PVN if need be, we can't beat M1A1s and F22s), but I'll play along.

Yes I pick you, and then I say "hey everybody, see how much better it is under Tom, now what if we went even further and wanted more for less, or better yet, let's make our own hot dogs".

Cody

[tomdemaine]

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Ok so PVN is forcing 100 people on the street to buy 10 of his $200 hotdogs with free wedgie a week. I come along and say if you support me I promise to only charge you $10 a hotdog and I'll only force you to buy 5 a week and I won't give you the wedgie but you have to actively support me and at least 51 people on the street have to sign a petition installing me as the new hotdog vendor. You have the option of either signing me in thereby legitimizing my status as official hotdog vendor because I'll have a document to point to and say see these people do want my hotdogs, or you can keep PVN around but all the time point out how unfair and evil the idea of forcing hotdogs on anyone is and try to convince enough people to stand up to PVN that it's not worth him trying to force them on you anymore.

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Kind of a false analogy (100 people can kill PVN if need be, we can't beat M1A1s and F22s), but I'll play along.

Yes I pick you, and then I say "hey everybody, see how much better it is under Tom, now what if we went even further and wanted more for less, or better yet, let's make our own hot dogs".

Cody

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But you've just signed a letter supporting me. You're not going to have much credibility if the next day you turn around and try to get rid of me are you?

[Richard Tanner]

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Ok so PVN is forcing 100 people on the street to buy 10 of his $200 hotdogs with free wedgie a week. I come along and say if you support me I promise to only charge you $10 a hotdog and I'll only force you to buy 5 a week and I won't give you the wedgie but you have to actively support me and at least 51 people on the street have to sign a petition installing me as the new hotdog vendor. You have the option of either signing me in thereby legitimizing my status as official hotdog vendor because I'll have a document to point to and say see these people do want my hotdogs, or you can keep PVN around but all the time point out how unfair and evil the idea of forcing hotdogs on anyone is and try to convince enough people to stand up to PVN that it's not worth him trying to force them on you anymore.

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Kind of a false analogy (100 people can kill PVN if need be, we can't beat M1A1s and F22s), but I'll play along.

Yes I pick you, and then I say "hey everybody, see how much better it is under Tom, now what if we went even further and wanted more for less, or better yet, let's make our own hot dogs".

Cody

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But you've just signed a letter supporting me. You're not going to have much credibility if the next day you turn around and try to get rid of me are you?

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Sure I do, we all know that I only had two choices, so certainly it's unlikely that my opinions were adequately reflected. I would just tell them the truth, "I live in the real world (street) and I was given a choice between 'life sucks alot' or 'life sucks less', I chose less."

Cody

[AlexM]

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I don't understand how you're not saying democracy can work.

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Depends on what you mean by "work."

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You're voting for a guy because he achieves some of your goals through the system of taxation and the use of force.

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No, I'm voting for a guy because he's going to hurt me a lot less than the other guy. My vote is purely self-defense.

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Thats exactly what every statist is doing you may have different goals but the principle is the same.

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No, statists vote to force their beliefs on others, not out of self-defense.

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You're saying I support a man who supports taxation. How is that not a support for taxation?

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I support you in your AC beliefs. Does that mean I support and agree with everything you say? Obviously not.

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I have the chance to convince people that aggression is wrong in all it's forms

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You do? How are you convincing people of this? Internet discussions where you, along with the combined efforts of several others might convince a dozen or so people over the course of your lifetime? LOL

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Ron Paul can never do that because he's advocated aggression.

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Absolutely false. He can set people on the right path from which they will be in a position to draw the proper conclusions.

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Who's got a better chance at changing the world for the better?

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Ron Paul, and it's not even remotely close. Even if you assume your idea of you converting more to non-violence is true, it's still Ron Paul because "for the better" isn't "perfect."

[AlexM]

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Ok so PVN is forcing 100 people on the street to buy 10 of his $200 hotdogs with free wedgie a week. I come along and say if you support me I promise to only charge you $10 a hotdog and I'll only force you to buy 5 a week and I won't give you the wedgie but you have to actively support me and at least 51 people on the street have to sign a petition installing me as the new hotdog vendor. You have the option of either signing me in thereby legitimizing my status as official hotdog vendor because I'll have a document to point to and say see these people do want my hotdogs, or you can keep PVN around but all the time point out how unfair and evil the idea of forcing hotdogs on anyone is and try to convince enough people to stand up to PVN that it's not worth him trying to force them on you anymore.

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Kind of a false analogy (100 people can kill PVN if need be, we can't beat M1A1s and F22s), but I'll play along.

Yes I pick you, and then I say "hey everybody, see how much better it is under Tom, now what if we went even further and wanted more for less, or better yet, let's make our own hot dogs".

Cody

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But you've just signed a letter supporting me. You're not going to have much credibility if the next day you turn around and try to get rid of me are you?

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Luckily, voting is absolutely nothing remotely like signing a letter supporting someone.

Also, to make this analogy more appropriate, change PVN's oppression to be over 10,000,000 people and make it so that he has 20,000,000 people not being oppressed backing him up if you decide you want to attack.

You have this delusional idea that things being worse will cause our government to fall. Not only is this absurdly unlikely, but even if it did actually happen, something just as bad or worse would take its place. You cannot lead an AC revolution unless the people support AC, and the sheep in this country need to experience freedom before they'll be willing to demand it.