Review: Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Stox/Zobags

[Adman]

I probably shouldn't even comment here since I am nowhere near the limits you guys are discussing but surely in nosebleed games like Stox plays there is NO WAY you are going to have a 2bb/100 win rate or anything like that? I would imagine that if your winrate is even slightly positive in those games then you are most likely doing very, very well. I mean surely there are no real fish at that limit and if there were they wouldn't last very long. Weak losing players simply couldn't afford to continually play that high unless they are rock stars or movie stars who occasionally play a bit of poker for fun on weekends or whatever!

In those games the edge any one player would have over others could only possibly be very small and could take quite some time to manifest itself in the form of earnings. I assume most of the players there have moved up to that limit after being proven winners in smaller games? I really doubt someone says to themselves one evening "I might give online poker a try. I'll deposit 180 grand and give 300/600 limit a bash. That should be fun."

With regards to the book I find it fascinating and I'm going to start my third reading today when I'm sitting on my ass in my boring job this afternoon. I will be very interested to read Dave Fromm's shorthanded book since a lot of the recommendations he makes in his DVD set directly contradict Stox.

[ddubois]

I'm half-way through the book, and I feel like I've read 20 pages. The tables, they make my eyes bleed! While I think it important that the author's have poured over every piece of data contained in the innumerable tables contained in this book, I think we the readers would have been just fine if the data had been provided solely online, and only the author's analysis and conclusions been printed. The only thing I got out of those tables is a chuckle when High open-folded AA from the SB.

[tolbiny]

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I'm half-way through the book, and I feel like I've read 20 pages. The tables, they make my eyes bleed! While I think it important that the author's have poured over every piece of data contained in the innumerable tables contained in this book, I think we the readers would have been just fine if the data had been provided solely online, and only the author's analysis and conclusions been printed. The only thing I got out of those tables is a chuckle when High open-folded AA from the SB.

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Stox, this is definitely a good book.
I do have criticisms on the formatting of the hand quizzes.
1. Start each hand at the top of its own page. this makes the action easier to follow and leaves room at the bottom for notes. Since this book should be viewed more like a text book/reference material it would be great to have room to make notations, and this is most apparent in the quiz section.
2. How much would it cost to have the suits colored? Especially with this book being geared toward online players it would be a much easier read if the suits were in the standard 4 color deck setup. I personally identify flushes more by color than shape nowadays (god help me when i play live) and i think a lot of other online players would agree.

If these two suggestions are two expensive how about offering a regular and a "student" version which would have more room for notes,/an easier format for an extra $10.

Third: Distribute the charts as a file to anyone who buys the book (or buys through conjelco), lots of good info in them, but they are so much harder to read in the size and format they are in, scanning and enlarging is a lower quality option and i would much prefer to have an electronic copy.

Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

[stoxtrader]

tolbiny - all good suggestions, however I think its a longshot they get implemented, and would be more mason's decision than mine. They seem to have a set process, and you can't argue with the results. It has been great working with them overall and I apppreciate the way they have treated us.

I think adding color is very expensive but I do not know. Also, Adding pages to the already daunting text in the way of more blank space would also be more expensive and also might cause complaints of the opposite nature to yours. I do think we could have put the results charts 50 pages worth? as a reference table in the back, but its not a travesty.

[Mason Malmuth]

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1. Start each hand at the top of its own page. this makes the action easier to follow and leaves room at the bottom for notes. Since this book should be viewed more like a text book/reference material it would be great to have room to make notations, and this is most apparent in the quiz section.

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We're concious of page count. Not only is more pages more expensive to produce, we can begin to introduce binding and shipping problems if the page count gets too high.

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2. How much would it cost to have the suits colored? Especially with this book being geared toward online players it would be a much easier read if the suits were in the standard 4 color deck setup. I personally identify flushes more by color than shape nowadays (god help me when i play live) and i think a lot of other online players would agree.

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Four color process is much more expensive. In addition, to keep costs down we often "gang" several books together. So if we went to one book in four color process they would now all be that way even if they have no other colors in them.

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If these two suggestions are two expensive how about offering a regular and a "student" version which would have more room for notes,/an easier format for an extra $10.

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This creates many problems for us. First, short printing runs are much more expensive per unit. Second, you create another new manuscript to typeset, edit, and proofread. This would hold up other projects. And third, you would create confusion among buyers. Simply put, we just don't have this capability in our small company.

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Distribute the charts as a file to anyone who buys the book (or buys through conjelco), lots of good info in them, but they are so much harder to read in the size and format they are in, scanning and enlarging is a lower quality option and i would much prefer to have an electronic copy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The charts are the size they are so that they would fit in the book and not take up too much space. We could have laid them out "landscape" instead of "portrait" (or put them sideways) but that would have driven the page count up significantly.

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Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

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Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.

MM

[tolbiny]

Mason,
thanks for the comments, if the extra costs are to much, then i guess the extra costs are to much, they are just somethings I would like to see if possible.

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The charts are the size they are so that they would fit in the book and not take up too much space. We could have laid them out "landscape" instead of "portrait" (or put them sideways) but that would have driven the page count up significantly.

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I was suggesting an electronic file of some kind that people could manipulate on their own.

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Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.


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Mason, unless i created some kind of revolutionary binding that never failed and cost pennies to produce i wouldn't stand a chance, your books are just to damn good. This is, I believe, the 15th 2+2 book I own, and I've bought several non 2+2 books thanks to your book reviews, so I hope you always remember that when you read these little nit picks, its becuase there is nothing major that is ever wrong with them.

[MyTurn2Raise]

I like the cover

[jeffnc]

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Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

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Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.

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Typical arrogant response. The binding on the Harrington books are just plain bad. Go into any bookstore and look at them on the shelves. They look like crap. It's either because they start falling apart even when shoppers are browsing, or they've all been returned. It's not like it's a matter of opinion. All the other books on the shelves got it better, somehow.

[MicroBob]

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Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical arrogant response. The binding on the Harrington books are just plain bad. Go into any bookstore and look at them on the shelves. They look like crap. It's either because they start falling apart even when shoppers are browsing, or they've all been returned. It's not like it's a matter of opinion. All the other books on the shelves got it better, somehow.

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I love the book.
I still hate the binding.
I know I've ranted about this before but I just wanted to add my agreement to the general sentiment.

I prefer the feel of almost any other paperback book more than this one or any other thicker 2+2 book.

If that means the other publishing companies are spending less than 2+2 then sobeit.
I consider their money better spent whereas 2+2 is spending more money for a quality of paper and binding which is just completely unpleasant.

Just my preference i guess but obviously I'm not the only one.

[fraac]

I don't like the 2+2 binding either. Feels cheap like it's going to fall apart.