NL: Why the hate on short buy-ins?

[Dilznoofus]

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I get so much joy out of hearing the "real" NL players whine about short-stackers. It makes me want to play it more.

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We're "whining" because they are bad for the game, not because they hurt our egos or because we can't adjust. In fact, it's often best not to adjust to the short stacks if there are other larger stacks at the table. They will make money off of us, but we will make more off the weaker deep stacked players by not drastically changing our preflop strategies, even if they can be easily exploited by the pushbots.

You shortstackers seem to think you're not doing any harm buying in for 20BB. Well how would you like it if there were no min buyin and someone came to the table rebuying repeatedly for 5BB? Would that not be bad for the game, especially if there were two or three of them at the table? If so, does that not indicate that there is some point at which buying in super short is bad for the game?

I think we all could live with a 40BB minimum, but the sites won't do it so you guys get to continue to be parasites.

[trader01]

I wonder sometimes why these short stackers don't just take their chips and go to a lower limit table - the players are worse (which makes things easier), and if all you're doing is waiting for a premium hand to push all in, wouldn't it be better to pay lower blinds while you wait? Seems kinda dumb to play short stack against better players on higher limit tables, and it doesn't do much to develop your poker skill... I can't recall ever seeing a short stacker make any real money on the tables I play...

[monkeyman]

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I wonder sometimes why these short stackers don't just take their chips and go to a lower limit table - the players are worse (which makes things easier), and if all you're doing is waiting for a premium hand to push all in, wouldn't it be better to pay lower blinds while you wait? Seems kinda dumb to play short stack against better players on higher limit tables, and it doesn't do much to develop your poker skill... I can't recall ever seeing a short stacker make any real money on the tables I play...

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you won't get the calls with the rag hands as often at the lower limit tables. i just do it for fun, usually at the end of the night after grinding it out playing "proper" poker. i can assure you, if done correctly, you will profit in the long run.

[Phytopath]

I seriously fail to see how this is bad for the game, that logic is total BS. Why do you think so many live games cap the Buyins so low? Because it is actually good for the game.

[WP_RakeBoss]

speaking of short stacks....where has DaCombes been at the $200 and $400 on world poker. i had nice stats vs him

i see your poits on hating short stacks at 6max but....
on 10 max i see a bigger problem.

the full buy in "set-monger" plays all pocket pairs and is a puss with any other hand. he has 2 goals, hit sets or fold and keep pots low with AK, KK, AA so he doesnt donk it all off.

[limitninja]

nothing funner
than hit and runner
with short stack
take your chips and put them in a rack

lol

[Dilznoofus]

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I seriously fail to see how this is bad for the game, that logic is total BS. Why do you think so many live games cap the Buyins so low? Because it is actually good for the game.

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There's a big difference between 20BB and 40-50BB. And in a live game even with a 50BB cap the stacks will get deeper because players don't just hit and run, move to another table and buy back in for 20BB.

FWIW I don't think short stackers are unethical. I just don't like them and do believe it's bad for the game. It's not just ratholers, but tight mediocre players who never seem to increase their stacks and therefore continue to tighten up the game as they struggle to double up. At microNL I run into a lot of these guys who are 6+ tabling. They sit around breaking even and making the games suck.

You're supposed to give action to get action, but 20BB shorties playing proper strategy only give action by moving in preflop with a narrow range, taking the fun out of the game for the fishy LAGs and loose passives.

[JLaw]

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I seriously fail to see how this is bad for the game, that logic is total BS. Why do you think so many live games cap the Buyins so low? Because it is actually good for the game.

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There's a big difference between 20BB and 40-50BB. And in a live game even with a 50BB cap the stacks will get deeper because players don't just hit and run, move to another table and buy back in for 20BB.

FWIW I don't think short stackers are unethical. I just don't like them and do believe it's bad for the game. It's not just ratholers, but tight mediocre players who never seem to increase their stacks and therefore continue to tighten up the game as they struggle to double up. At microNL I run into a lot of these guys who are 6+ tabling. They sit around breaking even and making the games suck.

You're supposed to give action to get action, but 20BB shorties playing proper strategy only give action by moving in preflop with a narrow range, taking the fun out of the game for the fishy LAGs and loose passives.

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And I think your last sentence may be why you don't like a short-stacker -- "taking the fun out of the game for the fishy LAGs and loose passives". While I'll acknowledge playing is fun; I'm more concerned with making money, particularly when short-stacking. While it seems like you're more motivated by the "fun" aspect.

Even so, I still disagree with your statement that it makes the game suck.

In general, I typically see 0-2 players per table that are observant enough to play correctly against a short stack opponent. They certainly tighten up when I'm in a pot, and I'm certainly more careful when they call my pre-flop raise.

However, that's often counterbalanced by those who have the mentality of "you only had XXX dollars, so why not play" where XXX is usually between 10 and 50 big-blinds. Getting no respect due to the size of your stack is about as good as it gets for a shortie.

When I made notes for short-stack play, those are the things I'm looking at -- what adjustments (if any) does the player make against a shortie. I'll avoid the former and feast on the latter.

Jeff

ps. I won't ask what you think of a 10BB min-buyin :-) They're out there, and they're good for a shortie too since you make money on the loose pre-flop call and the absurdly weak flop folds. How many 10-15BB pots I've taken down with a 3-5BB all-in "air" bet is just insane. I've only seen a few players adjust properly to a micro/tiny stack in a cash game.

[dragonystic]

wow, im really surprised so many people think shortstackers are 'bad for the game.' my ideal scenario is sitting with a full stack and having 5 shortstackers surrounding me. yum.