Beatable Game??

[Hamlet]

I play the $6-$12 at Canterbury. It has the same rake structure as the $8-$16 game and is very beatable. It often plays very loose (6+ players to the flop), and the aggressiveness varies tremendously. Note-- I did not say that I myself actually beat the game. I'm just saying that it is beatable. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm one of those players that avoids the $8-$16 because of the much increased aggressiveness. I'm not really playing poker for the money though. I like a game where I can see plenty of flops. When 5 bets are going in pre-flop, reasonably tight pre-flop play is required to be a break-even player, even if the game is loose. In the $6-$12, though, I can get away with playing alot of extra hands in the 6-7 way pots for 1-2 bets pre-flop. They cost me some money, perhaps even enough to make me a small net loser in the game (time will tell), but they are not big mistakes in a loose passive game. I'm talking mainly about suited trash type hands.

What I find interesting is how little understanding of loose games most otherwise solid players have. Which hand would you rather have on the flop in a 5-6 handed pot:

Hand 1 AJ
Hand 2 K7s

Flop Js 8s 7h

People don't seem to get that the K7s is a monster money favorite most of the time with a flop like that. Yes, it probably made a bad call pre-flop (although in a loose game it isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think). Once the flop comes, though, I would take the K7s every time. In fact, the AJ will often be a money dog to all the draws out against it. If raising won't thin the field, it should consider just calling instead of raising.

Disclosure-- I started playing live again after the Neteller issues. I had been playing microlimits online. In the past I played regularly at 15-30 at Canterbury and was a sizable winner (not enough hours to be statistically relevant). I have played about 75 hours this year and am a small winner $8/hr. I probably won't play more than 400 hours this year, so I won't really have enough hours to determine if my loose style of play is winning or losing.

It is surely more interesting than playing TAG poker though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Twistofsin]

The 8/16 here in AZ at CAZ and Gila river is easily good for 2bb/hr, sometimes more.

Frack, 4/8 is beatable with this rake if the game is juicy. And I've sat in plenty of 8/16 games just as juicy as the 4/8 games right next to me.

[MickeyWins]

I think terms like "win rate" which is some abstract way of measuring how well you play. or "a excellent player should make 2BB per hour".....are thrown around way too much..
game conditions are constantly changing....and the player needs to adjust to these changes....
I think having the tools to change with the game....and being able to "identify" when the game is beatable or walking away from a bad game....make a winning player.
Obviously, I am still working on both.

beat the bad players....learn to identify them

beat the "bad games"(good games)...learn to identify them

and most importantly...
DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF(tilt, tired, pissed...no patience).....

thanks for all the feedback.,,,,I learned a lot...

[Deorum]

[ QUOTE ]

$8/$16 with a $4+$2 rake.....is perhaps beatable for $5 a hour....if the players are bad. (perhaps true)
I will try some numbers...see if you agree.
A good tight player plays 20% of his starting hands.
A normal dealer deals 35 hands and hour.
The good player is seeing the flop 7 times an hour.
he hits the flop 1/3 times. so he is winning MAYBE 2 hands an hour.
he is paying 3.5 times the blinds to play ($6 x3.5=$21)
the good player must make up $21 per hour (blinds) plus two rakes of $12....or $33 in two hands per hour to break even. so he needs a profit of $16.50 per hand (he wins) to break even.
thats one big bet. so ..
YOU NEED MISTAKES (by the other players) THAT TOTAL ATLEAST ONE BIG BET PER HAND TO BREAK EVEN. AND 2 BIG BETS TO MAKE ONE BIG BET PER HOUR PROFIT.
I think that is hard to come by. first off...the "mistakes by other players"...are never full ev mistakes....cause they ussually have some outs to even the worst of calls.
any more thoughts????

[/ QUOTE ]

Just glanced at this quickly, and am not really interested in the conversation, but isn't he paying $42 an hour in blinds? ($4+$8) x 3.5 orbits/hr = $12 x 3.5 = $42.

Also, aren't you forgetting to include the money that player loses on the 5/7 hands per hour he played but did not win?

[PorkchopDJG]

[ QUOTE ]
I play the $6-$12 at Canterbury. It has the same rake structure as the $8-$16 game and is very beatable. It often plays very loose (6+ players to the flop), and the aggressiveness varies tremendously. Note-- I did not say that I myself actually beat the game. I'm just saying that it is beatable. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm one of those players that avoids the $8-$16 because of the much increased aggressiveness. I'm not really playing poker for the money though. I like a game where I can see plenty of flops. When 5 bets are going in pre-flop, reasonably tight pre-flop play is required to be a break-even player, even if the game is loose. In the $6-$12, though, I can get away with playing alot of extra hands in the 6-7 way pots for 1-2 bets pre-flop. They cost me some money, perhaps even enough to make me a small net loser in the game (time will tell), but they are not big mistakes in a loose passive game. I'm talking mainly about suited trash type hands.

What I find interesting is how little understanding of loose games most otherwise solid players have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 100% agree with this analysis of why I play 6/12 at Canterbury opposed to the crazy aggressive 8/16. The 6/12 game is just as loose but a lot less aggressive meaning you see a lot of flops multiway but don't have to put in 4 or 5 bets before seeing if you hit decent and can continue. You can play a lot of small pairs, suited connectors and suited one gappers and make big hands that will be paid off by the chasers.

[icepick]

[ QUOTE ]
You can play a lot of small pairs, suited connectors and suited one gappers and make big hands that will be paid off by the chasers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same and am successful at the 8/16 and 15/30 games.

[Bob T.]

[ QUOTE ]
are you saying a player ...playing 20-25% of his starting hands....should be able to win 3 to 4 hands per hour at CCC ..$8/$16....

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the game. In a normal game, you get 40 hands an hour, so you see the flop 10 times an hour, and if you win a third of those, you are in the three/four pots an hour range. To do that, probably one of those pots, is a small orphan pot that you pick up.

I played in a game today, where there were no orphan pots, it was a cranked up 8-16 game, where one maniac dumped 13 or 14 racks, in about 4 hours. You needed to be able to showdown to win hands, but you also had to be able to showdown some pretty meager holdings, because the pots were so huge that you couldn't fold at the river. I probably averaged more like two pots an hour in that game, and came out with a nice win.

[PorkchopDJG]

Did you see the part about 4 or 5 bets to see the flop, which in my experience is typical of 8/16 at Canterbury. I'm not saying 8/16 isn't good or can't be beat but I am saying, and I think most everyone whose played at Canterbury will agree, it is way more aggressive than 6/12.

[icepick]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you see the part about 4 or 5 bets to see the flop, which in my experience is typical of 8/16 at Canterbury. I'm not saying 8/16 isn't good or can't be beat but I am saying, and I think most everyone whose played at Canterbury will agree, it is way more aggressive than 6/12.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the 8/16 is more aggressive. But it's not 4 or 5 bets to the flop every single hand. At least not normally.

[ledfoot]

My first BB hand a few weeks ago is AA. Three limpers and SB call, I raise. Next guy 3 bets, another 4 bets, third limper caps, SB folds, I happily call.

I think the spazzy aggressive can usually be attributed to one or two players at a table. Perhaps you know an older gentlemen, Mike, who often suggests a round of straddles to create some action. There's an early 20ish kid who is extremely LAGish, raising and reraising pre and posf flop with garbage and legit hands. And when the other players are easily intimidated by his agggression, he collects lots of chips. Obviously, he experiences significant variance but it's intentional, and he doesn't tilt. Another guy I've played routinely raises preflop to create a big pot. In my opinion, it's uncommon to have many pots over a few hour session that go 4-5 bets preflop. I have difficulty dealing though with the nearly incomprehensible call downs that often win large pots.