**Official uNL microbrew thread:April**

[VPIP100]

I need to get my [censored] together

[Supwithbates]

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Supwithbabes, dude, you put in 50% of your stack on the river while behind. If anyone got outplayed in that hand, it's you.
Up to the river, I agree, you played it pretty well.

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and the other 90% of the time he didn't hit the 5 outer he's bluffshoving the missed draw when checked to him, hence why I took this line. It's the ever-so-standard stack-a-donk, you don't do it without a great read but I'd already seen him get caught playing overaggro on a draw, missing, and then overbetting river and getting called by a station and showing down a missed draw.

Hence, when he minraises, I say "almost always a draw". I call and lead turn, he calls, makes me say "def the flush draw, he knows I'm playing strong and doesn't think I'll fold so he calls to hit the flush". He rivers 2 pair, I check, he shoves as he always does and I snapcall. 9 flush cards he's paid too much to see, 5 other cards he's doubling, the rest of the time I get his whole stack. UBER+EV line.

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although i disagree with your hand entirely, if you were so sure he was on a draw, why didn't you just shove the flop? 95 offsuit isn't a hand you want to take the river. playing back at him on the flop also gives you a strong table image, instead you just look like a calling station.

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im tired of defending this hand, but shoving flop, if his cards are at all above me, gets me in at a coinflip... playing it the way I did basically gets his stack half the time, I double him 10%, and I lose a small pot 40% and get away easily

plus I thought he had a flush on flop, but wasn't about to shove on a hunch.. after the turn I was 99.99% sure

to restate:
5/44 times, or 1/9 of the time, Villains turn call of 1$ nets him 3.85+1+1.5=6.35$ total profit, getting 6.35:1 return on a 9:1 odds of hitting=mistake
9/44 times, or 1/5 of the time, villain's turn call of 1$ nets him 1+1.5=2.5, for a return of 2.5:1 on a 5:1 chance of hitting. =mistake

Even without the bluffshove, me playing this hand this way is hugely+EV.
Since I know he is apt to bluffshove river, that means that I'm potentially making as much as 3.85+1+1.5=6.35x30/44, or adding 4$ expected value PER HAND in addition to the msitake I'm already forcing of him. It's probably less than that in reality, since there are scarecards that he probably doesn't shove, ie the 2 remaining 9s, any ace, etc. then again, he might not even think that complexly to evaluate the board before bluffing a missed draw.

Anyways, if you still doubt that my line is hugely+EV over a flop shove (50:50 with a 1.5 overlay) then I don't know what to tell you

[Supwithbates]

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Gelford: is this why you're accusing me of pushing small edges? Stacking off with 95?

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I'm not accusing you of pushing small edges, I'm 'accusing' you of calling too much and raising to little

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Yes, and by that reasoning playing a 23/15 style is ... well you are pushing small edges.

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that's what I was referring to

Still, I honestly don't see the value in raising most of these spots... if I have a hand and it's limped to me, I usually limp or fold, but if I have AQo and a 40/12 raises it to me, I'm scarcely ahead of his range already... they aren't stealing.

Likewise with 99 and below facing a raise, against 90% of villains a reraise is just spew... most of the time I'm playing for set value anyways, so why reraise and deny myself set odds (especially since half the players buy in short)

[SirFelixCat]

This is MUCH better. Not just running well, but learning to not play for my damn stack so damn often!

Off to a good start this month. Not as good as the guy above me w/ +25 buyin's but 8 in a session ain't too shabby!

[Gelford]

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Yes, and by that reasoning playing a 23/15 style is ... well you are pushing small edges.

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that's what I was referring to


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Well my wording was not the best in that post, that I admit.

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Still, I honestly don't see the value in raising most of these spots... if I have a hand and it's limped to me, I usually limp or fold, but if I have AQo and a 40/12 raises it to me, I'm scarcely ahead of his range already... they aren't stealing.

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That really depends, if you are looking a a 40/5/0,5 player raising under the gun, then you are right

If you are looking at a 40/30/5 player raising from the co, then you are most likely not.

Hell even a 23/15 player like you. If I sat at your table and you raised pf from co or btn, I'd assume my 99 was way ahead of your range and insta-auto-3bet you

Postflop is more difficult to describe in a short sentence, but I think an aggression of 3 sounds a bit low.

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Likewise with 99 and below facing a raise, against 90% of villains a reraise is just spew... most of the time I'm playing for set value anyways, so why reraise and deny myself set odds (especially since half the players buy in short)

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I've commented a bit on the 99 hand above and finally, I will comment on the short players, usually they aren't very good and so a hand like 99 has their ranges crushed. I am never playing 99 for set value against a uNL shorty, I play it for its value as a semibig pocketpair. And if I can get shorty all in pf, then I'm happy.

[kazana]

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Even without the bluffshove, me playing this hand this way is hugely+EV.

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This (which btw is only true if you don't call the river push), and this observation from Gelford
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I'm 'accusing' you of calling too much and raising to little

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makes you look like what I label as "bluff paranoid - take to valuetown asap".

About the 95 hand, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, since you know villain much better than I do.
I do have the feeling, though, that you're implying he'll shove with a missed draw more often than he'll do in reality. Just a feeling.

Having said that, just keep playing like that if you think it's correct. Obviously no one here will be able to tell you otherwise. Don't complain if you make villain's hugely -EV turn call the correct move on the river, though.

[kabouter]

Wow I'm playing so bad it makes me sick, calling an allin with ace high and stuff like that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] And every time I get my senses back, and grind back up I make the same stupid mistake...

[Supwithbates]

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Even without the bluffshove, me playing this hand this way is hugely+EV.

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This (which btw is only true if you don't call the river push), and this observation from Gelford
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I'm 'accusing' you of calling too much and raising to little

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makes you look like what I label as "bluff paranoid - take to valuetown asap".

About the 95 hand, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, since you know villain much better than I do.
I do have the feeling, though, that you're implying he'll shove with a missed draw more often than he'll do in reality. Just a feeling.

Having said that, just keep playing like that if you think it's correct. Obviously no one here will be able to tell you otherwise. Don't complain if you make villain's hugely -EV turn call the correct move on the river, though.

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As I showed earlier, if my read is correct on the turn(and I'm pretty certain it is after he just calls) then there is no way I could make his turn call correct as long as I don't pay off the flush.

If my read is off then I'm obviously way overplaying my hand, but I'm not at all concerned with my reads, they're spot-on 95% of the time, so I'm proceeding under the assumption that my river play can go under the assumption that he was on a flushdraw on the turn, maybe flushdraw+ a pair, so there's really no way for me to mess up the hand on the river unless I call a shove when he hits the flush.

As for the "bluff paranoid comment," I'm a huge nit about not overplaying a made hand without a strong read... since i was VERY confident I was up against a draw rather than a made hand, then there's no way to overplay top pair since no draw will beat that (since the top pair is a club)

[Everlong]

@Supwithbabes
This is re: what you wrote earlier. Here are my Stats from when I played NL10 on Stars (December/Jan). I actually agree with you that I had to limp behind a little more at NL10 than higher levels. I also played more hands because the opponents were so bad.

I know my sample is kinda small but here you go anyway in case it is any help.

[munkey]

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munkey, IMO there is absolutely no reason to play NL50 at FT when you have the option of playing on Party. Maybe I'm jaded by my FT downswing by the games are much much tougher there.

Full tilt didn't seem to have as many uberdonks as Party, so one adjustment that I've had to make which I really hadn't considered before is table selecting religiously. I know it's difficult when everyone's bad, but if you aren't at the table with one huge donk (like 50VPIP+) then leave and open up another one. The playerbase is big enough and bad enough that is should be pretty easy (The buddylist is an awesome tool for this too). I like to think that I've been the best player at the table for 80+% of my hands at Party, and there's no reason it shouldn't be higher.

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Ye I'm starting to feel similar after my recent bad run @ FT. It took a while to start adjusting to playing uberdonks.
Downside is hand reading is a little tricky as I'm often surprised what I get shown but I am getting an awful lot of frequent flyer miles to valuetown [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I'm also starting to realise having the right types of players on both your left and right helps enormously - having 2 xlooseys on your left really shows up in your winnings -so when PAHUD kicks in after 20 or so hands/I sense I'm OOP I find another table.

Thanks for the buddylist tip - I need to start using this.
I asked kazana for a quick analysis of player types there and he usefully described the common species [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] which was mucho useful @ first as the hands go round alot faster and enabled me to categorise quickly with few reads.

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Munkey... ya the lag drives me crazy... so many times it has disconnected too and always when I'm in the middle of a big pot... other than that what do you mean by changes?? in players? if so I haven't noticed much diff since the upgrade...



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Nah, I haven't noticed much except an influx of players when the bonuses were given out, and just wondered if the annoying delay LAG was more likely to scare away fishies and the sharks would stay?

(And you playing alot would be more likely to notice those changes.)