Misplayed AK out of position

[Brad1970]

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You're heads-up. You are getting 10-1. You likely have six outs and the only strength you've been shown is getting raised on a ragged flop by someone who quite possibly wants a free card. Not to mention the fact that bet-folding this flop after reraising out of the small will be like putting a big "kick me" sign on your forehead. IMO if you are bet-folding this hand on the flop in a typical 40 game, you are better off mailing your money in.

Jeff

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

[7ontheline]

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

[Brad1970]

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

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What's so hard to understand? If you play the same players enough & know you are beat, fold. It's that easy.

[7ontheline]

Are you seriously ignoring the pot size or are you just stating that in games you play in there isn't enough in the pot getting 9:1 because your opponents don't raise unless you're crushed?

[Brad1970]

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Are you seriously ignoring the pot size or are you just stating that in games you play in there isn't enough in the pot getting 9:1 because your opponents don't raise unless you're crushed?

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Let me make this simple......If you are sitting in a rock garden with AK off suit out of position & the flop missed you and some old 80 year old man who hasn't bet since the depression bets into you (or raises)...what do you do? Do you give him credit for some sort of hand? Or do you say...hmmm...that sumbitch is making a move on me. I'm getting odds, so what the hell...I'll call him down with my Ace high & hope I catch.

This is the kind of senario that I see alot. When these clowns get in a pot, they rarely fold which makes it very juicy. But why draw against a made hand? That is my experience in mid limit holdem & I guess I should have been more clear when I made that initial comment.

[W. Deranged]

Brad,

You're missing the whole point.

EVERY decision is a pots odds decision. In the "rock garden" example you cite, I imagine everyone here agrees with you that it is correct to fold. But it's important to think about why you are folding in correct terms. You fold there, and not, say, in the original post, because the combined odds of catching a better card on the turn, catching a better card on the river (if the turn checks through), or showing down the best hand on the river (somehow) do not combine to be a significant enough probability to merit investing a bet, given the current pot size.

Thinking in terms of platitudes like "why draw against a made hand?" is very dangerous. I've seen many poor players spout that kind of line when they fold solid drawing hands (like flush draws on the turn) when it is very incorrect to do so. (The same poor players, in fact, who peel gutshots on the flop indiscriminately). Every situation is relative, and the key variable in almost every poker decision is pot size.

[Brad1970]

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Brad,

You're missing the whole point.

EVERY decision is a pots odds decision. In the "rock garden" example you cite, I imagine everyone here agrees with you that it is correct to fold. But it's important to think about why you are folding in correct terms. You fold there, and not, say, in the original post, because the combined odds of catching a better card on the turn, catching a better card on the river (if the turn checks through), or showing down the best hand on the river (somehow) do not combine to be a significant enough probability to merit investing a bet, given the current pot size.

Thinking in terms of platitudes like "why draw against a made hand?" is very dangerous. I've seen many poor players spout that kind of line when they fold solid drawing hands (like flush draws on the turn) when it is very incorrect to do so. (The same poor players, in fact, who peel gutshots on the flop indiscriminately). Every situation is relative, and the key variable in almost every poker decision is pot size.

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I agree that poker is a situational game but to me pot odds is not the only driving force in whether to bet, call, or fold. I try to play the player as much if not more than the odds. Sorry if I don't play the way you do. FWIW, I don't ever recall folding a flush draw on the turn or chasing a gutshot.

[djeric1]

Brad,

Thanks for the comments on the flop call.. Not sure if you've played in the Borg 40 game before, but it tends to play rather aggressively, and I definitely didn't have any reads that the flop raiser was a tight rock. In this situation with no reads on flop raiser, along with pot odds, and meta-game reasons of people taking shots at me in the future (that Jeffage and 3rdCheckRaise were referring to), IMO, I have to at least see the turn before making any other decisions in this hand...

-Eric

[Brad1970]

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Brad,

Thanks for the comments on the flop call.. Not sure if you've played in the Borg 40 game before, but it tends to play rather aggressively, and I definitely didn't have any reads that the flop raiser was a tight rock. In this situation with no reads on flop raiser, along with pot odds, and meta-game reasons of people taking shots at me in the future (that Jeffage and 3rdCheckRaise were referring to), IMO, I have to at least see the turn before making any other decisions in this hand...

-Eric

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I have never been to the Borgata.
I have never played in this particular game.
I basically stated as much in an earlier post in this thread.

As I said in my intial post, I agree with the way you played this hand. I woulda folded the river, but if you had specific reasons for calling, then so be it.

The second paragraph in that initial post should have been worded different obviously because all games in all cardrooms do not play the same. I should have realized that I would stir up the nits with such a broad comment. My apologies.

[HOWMANY]

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Pot odds aside, is it too far wrong to fold when you know you are behind?

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I'm confused - how can you put pot odds aside when you're deciding whether to fold? You could be so far behind and only have one out and if the pot is big enough you still ought to call. I agree that folding to the flop raise here is weakweakweak but if you're in a game where it's 100% you're beat and drawing thin then folding might be OK - don't exactly see how you could be that sure though.

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What's so hard to understand? If you play the same players enough & know you are beat, fold. It's that easy.

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5th level?

There is $1,000,000 in the pot from previous betting in a NL game and your opponent pushes all in for his last $0.01 while accidentally exposing his hand which is AA. You have KK. You fold?