Please shutup about the US bringing democracy to other countries

[PrayNSpraY]

Totally agree with the original poster. As a matter of fact one of the USs biggest allies in the "War on Terror" is Pakistan, the president of which is an army general who came to power by force.
And now we supply this country with F16s and advanced military technology. The only thing holding this country together is the army and as the prez dies or gets assasinated it will be a mess bigger than Iraq.
On a sidenote, u hear Mr. Bush talk about the terrorists trying to impose their way of life on us, while thats exactly what we'r trying to do, impose our way of life on them.

[Josem]

OP - Are you saying that only privileged westerners should be able to have democracy?

Others, previously, have argued that Asian people could not govern themselves (eg, Japan) and that German people should not govern themselves. I think that is morally bankrupt.

[SNOWBALL]

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OP - Are you saying that only privileged westerners should be able to have democracy?


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no. what makes you think I'm saying that?

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Others, previously, have argued that Asian people could not govern themselves (eg, Japan) and that German people should not govern themselves. I think that is morally bankrupt.

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Agreed.

[Josem]

awesome.

good to hear.


too often I see people following up your original argument with comments such as Arabs being unsuited to democracy.

[John Kilduff]

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awesome.

good to hear.


too often I see people following up your original argument with comments such as Arabs being unsuited to democracy.

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Arabs are not inherently "unsuited" to democracy, but that
doesn't mean that in the Middle East most will take to democracy like ducks to water, either. The history and culture of the Middle East has long not been democratic, and many centuries of tradition don't disappear overnight. Also, the widespread religious element that desires Shari'a religious rule is not in favor of democratic rule.

So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. If you're saying that Arabs have no genetic component that prevents them from democracy, I agree wholeheartedly. If you're ignoring centuries of tradition and vast numbers of Middle Easterners who favor Shari'a law, and saying that democracy ought to work as readily in the Middle East as anywhere else, then I disagree.

Democracy (in the Western sense with genuine civil rights protections) unfortunately isn't likely to be widely adopted in the Middle East any time in the foreseeable future. It's possible, but in my opinion it isn't likely.

By the way, that is one major area where I believe the Neo-Cons erred: in supposing that the installation of a viable, Western-style democracy in the Middle East would be relatively little trouble. The Neo-Cons blithely dismissed many centuries of tradition, and the fact that democracy has no roots in Middle Eastern history, and the fact that millions of Middle Easterners want Shari'a religious rule rather than democracy. But the Neo-Cons promised us it would be a done deal: Riiiight.

I don't doubt that Middle Easterners are capable of ruling themselves. In the foreseeable future, though, it just isn't likely to be under a democracy with constitutional protections for what we in the West consider essential human/civil rights. But of course, Middle Easterners are perfectly capable of ruling themselves. I don't see why anyone would think that they aren't so capable.

[TomCollins]

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awesome.

good to hear.


too often I see people following up your original argument with comments such as Arabs being unsuited to democracy.

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Cultures are very difficult to make drastic changes in in short periods of time. If you switch an Arab baby with an American baby, chances are they will follow the same paths otherwise. However, you are trying to change centuries of tradition and culture overnight. It has to be an ooch approach.

100 years ago, blacks were regarded as inferior almost to the point of being a different species. 50 years ago they couldn't ride busses in the South or eat at certain restaruants. Today, one has a very good shot of being elected President. Cultures can change, but it happens with time.

[Josem]

it took a couple of years to change Japanese "culture." it took a couple of years to change German "culture." it took a couple of months to fix South African "culture."


sure, the Iraq situation is not ideal, but it's on the right track.



simply because it is tough doesn't mean the struggle should be conceded. once upon a time, when the US democrats were the party of freedom, one of their leaders made the point (paraphrasing) that human rights accumulate from the hand of god, not from the generosity of the state.

[boracay]

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it took a couple of years to change Japanese "culture." it took a couple of years to change German "culture." it took a couple of months to fix South African "culture."


sure, the Iraq situation is not ideal, but it's on the right track.

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I hope you know how funny those comparisons are.

[pvn]

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OP - Are you saying that only privileged westerners should be able to have democracy?

Others, previously, have argued that Asian people could not govern themselves (eg, Japan) and that German people should not govern themselves. I think that is morally bankrupt.

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So if you think everyone should be able to govern themselves, why do you care about democracy?