8+Tabling Americans And 4 Tabling Europeans

[Peter McDermott]

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I may choose to work less because I value incremental free time over incremental earnings, but I'd rather be able to make that choice rather than have it imposed on me by my government. By the large numbers of European entrepreneurs who move to the U.S. to start businesses, I'd guess the brighter and more motivated Europeans agree with me.

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I hate to break this to you, DesertCat, but the issue here is *paid* vacation time. There's nothing stopping you from working your vacations -- that way you get paid twice over for the same period and earn >>>> than Americans.

Secondly, it's mostly only donkeys are paid hourly/daily anyway. Anyone who is on decent money gets a salary, and therefore it doesn't matter how many hours a week or month you work, your pay will be the same.

No overtime for management/professional classes, sadly.

[DesertCat]

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I hate to break this to you, DesertCat, but the issue here is *paid* vacation time. There's nothing stopping you from working your vacations -- that way you get paid twice over for the same period and earn >>>> than Americans.

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Peter, you are smarter than this. You surely understand that "paid" vacation really isn't. You only earn money by working. Your company pays you some of what you've earned while you aren't working, that's called "paid vacation". Essentially you get paid a little less during working weeks, and that amount is saved up for your vacation periods.

The more "paid vacation" you have as a percentage of your work time, the less time you have to work and the less you will earn. If you are worth $50k a year when you working 48 weeks a year, you are worth less working 40 weeks per year.

Try this thought experiment. Assume your goverment mandates 50 weeks of paid vacation per year, and only 2 weeks of work. Do you really believe companies could still pay the same wages? Auto factories would see production drop by 95%, their revenues from selling those cars would also drop by 95%. Do you really think they'd have enough money to pay the same wages?

This is the way it works, even if government mandates just one extra day of vacation time, it comes out of your pocket.


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Secondly, it's mostly only donkeys are paid hourly/daily anyway. Anyone who is on decent money gets a salary, and therefore it doesn't matter how many hours a week or month you work, your pay will be the same.

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The more hours you work, the more you produce and the more valuable you are to employers. Even if salaried. In a competitive labor (er, labour) market, on average you'll see the benefit of extra work, either through promotions, raises, or a higher offer from a competitive firm. All other things being equal, an employee who comes in at 7 am, and leaves at 7 pm, working hard the entire time, is worth more than a twin who comes in at 9 am, and leaves at 5 pm, even if the twin works equally hard whilst in the office.

[Peter McDermott]

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Try this thought experiment. Assume your goverment mandates 50 weeks of paid vacation per year, and only 2 weeks of work. Do you really believe companies could still pay the same wages? Auto factories would see production drop by 95%, their revenues from selling those cars would also drop by 95%. Do you really think they'd have enough money to pay the same wages?


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But this scenario gives the worker *more* freedom, not less. He can either choose to take his paid leave and have more free time, or he can work his paid leave and have more money. In the American scenario, if the boss says that you get two weeks leave a year and you decide you want four, you're out on your arse.
Ergo Europeans are actually *freer* than Americans!

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The more hours you work, the more you produce and the more valuable you are to employers. Even if salaried. In a competitive labor (er, labour) market, on average you'll see the benefit of extra work, either through promotions, raises, or a higher offer from a competitive firm. All other things being equal, an employee who comes in at 7 am, and leaves at 7 pm, working hard the entire time, is worth more than a twin who comes in at 9 am, and leaves at 5 pm, even if the twin works equally hard whilst in the office.

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There's an abundance of research that shows that we're only effective when we work a certain number of hours a day. Once you start to go over that number, you start to become less effective and less productive, not more so.

And if it takes me four hours to do the same amount of work that it takes my more diligent twin eight to do, then I can either choose whether I want to invest that extra time in my future employment prospects, or I can choose whether I prefer to enjoy it as free time now.

In the US professional workplace culture where everybody seems to work ludicrous hours simply because that's what's expected, regardless of how effective they are during that time period, employees seem to me to be both less happy and, once again, less free.

[DesertCat]

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But this scenario gives the worker *more* freedom, not less. He can either choose to take his paid leave and have more free time, or he can work his paid leave and have more money. In the American scenario, if the boss says that you get two weeks leave a year and you decide you want four, you're out on your arse.
Ergo Europeans are actually *freer* than Americans!


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Well the problem is that your first job is probably the one you are most skilled at and highly compensated for. An auto worker who is given more free time isn't financially better off working his free time as a clerk in a convenience store. Clearly the more hours on the assembly line the more income they'll make.

Economically we all have our highest and best occupations. Being limited to doing that part time so you are forced to work a less lucrative occupation the rest of the time isn't freedom. And there is a great deal more flexibility in american jobs than you realize. At every company I've worked at flexible job arrangements were the norm, not the exception.


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There's an abundance of research that shows that we're only effective when we work a certain number of hours a day. Once you start to go over that number, you start to become less effective and less productive, not more so.


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This is somewhat true, though job dependent on how big an effect it is. But since you still produce more each hour you work, even if it's a lessor rate, that's still being effective.

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In the US professional workplace culture where everybody seems to work ludicrous hours simply because that's what's expected, regardless of how effective they are during that time period, employees seem to me to be both less happy and, once again, less free.

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I had forgotten how cheery the brits were with their working conditions in that documentary, "The Office". Clearly it's only americans who gripe about work.

My experience is it's simply a matter of motivation. Some of your workers will be very ambitious, some will have other priorities such as home life, the best management is to let each group achieve their own balance and reward each for their contributions.

[Peter McDermott]

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My experience is it's simply a matter of motivation. Some of your workers will be very ambitious, some will have other priorities such as home life, the best management is to let each group achieve their own balance and reward each for their contributions.

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And on this closing point, DC, we're in complete agreement.

[ShakeZula06]

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There's an abundance of research that shows that we're only effective when we work a certain number of hours a day. Once you start to go over that number, you start to become less effective and less productive, not more so.

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This situation would be selected against in a free market. Do you see why?
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And if it takes me four hours to do the same amount of work that it takes my more diligent twin eight to do, then I can either choose whether I want to invest that extra time in my future employment prospects, or I can choose whether I prefer to enjoy it as free time now.

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Good for you. Now what does this have to do with violating Business owner Bob and worker Harry's right to freedom of association?
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In the US professional workplace culture where everybody seems to work ludicrous hours simply because that's what's expected, regardless of how effective they are during that time period, employees seem to me to be both less happy and, once again, less free.

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What's not free about it? Were employees forced by someone to work? You have a weird defintion of free.