Live 25-50, big decision with bottom 2

[Steem_Machine]

[ QUOTE ]
I had been leaning toward a fold, but after his "Absolutely" comment I was now 50/50 on what to do.

I thought for another minute, then I picked up my money and started counting it to see how he would react. He seemed very uncomfortable, and combined with his comment, that made me decide to call.

He had AA. I won.

It's interesting to me that the responses range from "easy fold" to "easy call." I don't think there is anything easy about this decision, I think it is pretty close (against a known solid opponent I would probably fold pretty quickly, but that was not the case here, and I also had what I thought was a pretty good read on him not wanting a call).

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before, no way he shows up with an overpair [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Sounds like in the end you made a good read, and followed through.

[cruising600]

Here's a tip that has made me a lot of money, but most regulars at these casinos never ever ever ever ever fold overpairs. I'm being dead serious. It seems after sitting through long hours full of terrible cards, they get so excited after seeing a great hand that will play for stacks. It doesn't even matter what the action is on the flop, turn, or river. If there are two guys go all in in front of him, and pretty obvious at least one has a damn strong hand, they will still call or raise all in. They will never fold an overpair.

[KEWL]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on if villian sucks enough to shove KK and AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is really what it comes down to right

[Moonshine]

[ QUOTE ]
I ask villain if he wants me to call, and he looks me in the eye and says, “Absolutely.”

Your action?

[/ QUOTE ]


oh god, well now you have to call.

good luck dodging those bullets

[iRock]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because we have 84o in the worst position with 6 limpers in the pot. What scenario do we want the flop to be? 844 and hope someone with A4 gets all in? 84o really doesnt work together. If you are going to play it there are hardly better flops than the one we are with here.

[/ QUOTE ]
For all those saying fold u have obv not played deep stack poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted I do not have a lot of live experience, but I have played deep stack poker and that really doesnt change for a hand like 84o. 84o is just a really bad hand that is going to get you in more trouble than its worth. With 6 limpers you call and now lets run through some flops.

A8x - probably check fold it

822 - maybe lead and fold to real pressure or get called by a better 8 or at best lower pp who will give up hand later.

842 - unless someone was slowplaying an overpair, you probably will get 1 bet out of hands like 55 and A4, maybe two out of 89 and get stacked by 222.

8810 - maybe a few bets out of people

567 - win a small - decent pot or lose to 89 (unless someone sets).

flops you miss - check fold

the point is there are very few flops where you are going to be ahead and get value out to cover your losses from check folding misses and partial hits. 78 you can straighten out or at least have a situation where someone gets frisky with a draw against your two pair. I have heard those saying "wtf fold preflop?" are good players but i think calling preflop is a mistake.

[TheWorstPlayer]

i agree. there are very few non-nut hands where you will get action from worse and there are very few nut hands where you will get action. 84o is just about the worst hand in poker and i think even against a bunch of live donkeys playing it out of position will not prove to be profitable.

[Moonshine]

you know one day you and this fish are gonna be sittin with 50k each with another 50k fish on your left. folds to him on button. he limps. you fold 84 and watch as the flop comes 888AK and fish and super fish get 1000bbs in the middle each while you try to bash your brains open with a handful of black chips as they show their cleverly slowplayed AA and KK

yea, i'd just call to be sure that never happened. no other reason really

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Granted I do not have a lot of live experience, but I have played deep stack poker and that really doesnt change for a hand like 84o. 84o is just a really bad hand that is going to get you in more trouble than its worth. With 6 limpers you call and now lets run through some flops.

A8x - probably check fold it

822 - maybe lead and fold to real pressure or get called by a better 8 or at best lower pp who will give up hand later.

842 - unless someone was slowplaying an overpair, you probably will get 1 bet out of hands like 55 and A4, maybe two out of 89 and get stacked by 222.

8810 - maybe a few bets out of people

567 - win a small - decent pot or lose to 89 (unless someone sets).

flops you miss - check fold

the point is there are very few flops where you are going to be ahead and get value out to cover your losses from check folding misses and partial hits. 78 you can straighten out or at least have a situation where someone gets frisky with a draw against your two pair. I have heard those saying "wtf fold preflop?" are good players but i think calling preflop is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree for a lot of reasons, but I think it comes down to this:

I agree 84o is a terrible hand, but many of the biggest pots I have ever won have been with terrible starting hands that flopped well-disguised hands (like 2-pair). I've had people with overpairs stack off to me on boards like this more times than I can count.

If I limp in for 25 on the [EDIT: small blind], most of the time I am done with the hand on the flop. About 2% of the time, I will flop two pair, and when I do, I am usually going to be a big favorite, and have a shot at stacking somebody. If you don't think its worth $25 for a shot to win $6,500... well, I guess we do not play the same.

[TheWorstPlayer]

uh, i think the main point is that when you flop two pair with 84 you will NOT be a big favorite. give villain in this hand ANY reasonable hand range and see how your two pair stacks up against it...

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree for a lot of reasons, but I think it comes down to this:

I agree 84o is a terrible hand, but many of the biggest pots I have ever won have been with terrible starting hands that flopped well-disguised hands (like 2-pair).


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you're talking about this hand, but your 2 pair hand was not at all well disguised. Whenever a blind checkraises I assume that a random 2 pair (SB or BB special) is in their range. You pretty much defined your hand by checkraising here, but the guy you stacked happens to be a donkey who can't read hands/lay down aces. How could he push all-in after a bet, a call, and a CR out of the blinds? Clearly the guy sucks.

[ QUOTE ]

I've had people with overpairs stack off to me on boards like this more times than I can count.


[/ QUOTE ]

At least you practice good game selection.

[ QUOTE ]

If I limp in for 25 on the [EDIT: small blind], most of the time I am done with the hand on the flop. About 2% of the time, I will flop two pair, and when I do, I am usually going to be a big favorite, and have a shot at stacking somebody.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not at all true assuming competent players. If you are playing against clueless calling stations who will not fold any pair, then your analysis makes more sense.