The Pulsating Vein Tell

[David Sklansky]

In an earlier post I asked whether it was cheating if you could see another player's cards or if you took advantage of the fact that the vein in his temple pulsated when he had a good hand. I was surprised by the fact that everyone put the second scenario under the category of picking up a tell.

His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change. If you take advantage of it you are beating him based on something very similar to beating him due to the fact that his hands shake and you can see his cards because he can't protect them very well. If you want to argue that it is OK to take advantage of this kind of thing fine. But don't tell me that this falls under the category of routine tell detection.

[ohgeetee]

He can absolutely change this once he knows it is happening, just like sitting far back in his chair when he has a good hand, etc.

His vein is pulsing because he is excited about having a great hand. With lots of play and focus, he can calm himself and the vein won't pulse like its going to pop out of his head. Another option is for him to make the vein pump when he doesn't have a great hand, which is probably even easier. In the meantime, he could wear a beanie or cap and just hide it.

The whole idea behind a tell is that the person is completely unaware that it is happening, and until its called out, they wouldn't ever make an attempt to change it. The guy that peeks at his hole cards everytime 2 to a flush hits the board won't ever make the simple change of taking a little more time to memorize his cards until he reads about it or someone points it out to him. Taking advantage of it until then is taking advantage of a tell, just like the vein until the person makes the appropriate effort to change that.

While its certainly harder to stop the shakes or a pulsing vein than it is to stop asking your oreos if you should call, its definitely not impossible.

[Shandrax]

I thought everything that gives away true information is a tell.

[keikiwai]

obviously he should eat a lot of salty food while playing to elevate his blood pressure so that his vein is constantly pulsating whether he has a good hand or not - so he can change it

[eurythmech]

Presto!

[aramfingal]

i don't see how this even compares to seeing someone's cards. when you have a very strong hand the vein still doesn't tell you if their "good" hand is slightly better or slightly worse than your hand. and you won't know if it can happen when they bluff until you've seen them get caught bluffing a few times.

[_D&L_]

Reading pulsating veins has to be considered "part of the game," largely because its an unvoidable aspect of playing the game. All players will exude body tells, that are to a more or lesser degree, readable by other players, whose skill at reading the tells will also vary.

The only arugable difference with the shakey hands guy is that you saw his cards. There was no skill involved in reading his tell (u saw the cards), and no chance that he was trying to trick you with a false tell (e.g. false excitement, using knowledge of his own tell to his advantage).

So that's the difference. Whether its "wrong" to use knowledge of seeing another player's cards who has shakey hands depends on what you think the game of poker is about. If its about rewarding the most deceptive, cunning player at the table, then its ok to use the info. If there is an implied skill requirement in reading another player's hand, then it wouldn't be ok - because it involved no skill in reading his hand (but arguably a lack of skill on his part)

In my opinion, it would be ok to use info in either case.

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, it would be ok to use info in either case.

[/ QUOTE ]
As my dad would alway say when we played cards:
"If you are going to show me your cards then I am going to look at them"

[DivideByZero]

A pulsing vein can happen if their bluffing, too.

Either way, it's completely different than looking at someone's cards, because using a tell keeps it as a game of incomplete information and doesn't violate the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. It just gives you an "edge".

[leaponthis]

[ QUOTE ]
His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky are you serious? Who in the hell labeled you a genius? Must have been your dad, cause he loved you and didn't want to hurt your feelings. Have you ever watched Phil Laak play? Can you see any of his veins at all when he plays? He wears a hood and hides his hands inside of it. a person that wants to know if his veins are pulsing when he gets excited needs only look at himself in the mirror as he observes a young sex object. Something you should know a lot about. Please give us something of meaning. Use your brain not your reputation. We may not all be geniuses here but we all also may not be stupid either. Some of us, I mean.

leaponthis