Phil Ivey Gossip

[Kano]

Ok, I cross posted this on a well known UK poker forum to see if anyone had any info and looks like we have some credible info on the whole thing.

"ok few miss truths there.

sangstrom flew to san diego to play ivey and arranged handicap before he flew out. Ivey shot 39 on the front 9 (3 months ago you could've had 100-1 on him breaking 50) and Sangrstrom paid up and walked off the course.

In australia the handicap issue was brought up as they hadn't played him for a few months and the bar was set by someone they had both played recently- erik lingren. Phil was asked directly how many shots eric gave him and he replied 10 so they used that as the benchmark. Ivey then spanked both Ram and Marc and when they got back to the hotel Eric said Ivey gets no shots off him now as he has had the best coaching money can buy for the past few months and has improved his game by maybe 22 shots a round. Lying about your handicap in golf is cheating not hussling and both Marc and Ram are not giving him a penny- if ivey had been truthful he would have still taken them for a couple of hundred grand but he got greedy and has sullied his name. Several huge names in oz were discusted by his behaviour and he flew home early. Some of the biggest names in poker have said they wouldn't give him a cent and Ivey has certainly come off not looking very good in this affair. Maybe marc will come on to confirm all this."

This really doesn't look very good for Phil.

[Jackal69]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I cross posted this on a well known UK poker forum to see if anyone had any info and looks like we have some credible info on the whole thing.

"ok few miss truths there.

sangstrom flew to san diego to play ivey and arranged handicap before he flew out. Ivey shot 39 on the front 9 (3 months ago you could've had 100-1 on him breaking 50) and Sangrstrom paid up and walked off the course.

In australia the handicap issue was brought up as they hadn't played him for a few months and the bar was set by someone they had both played recently- erik lingren. Phil was asked directly how many shots eric gave him and he replied 10 so they used that as the benchmark. Ivey then spanked both Ram and Marc and when they got back to the hotel Eric said Ivey gets no shots off him now as he has had the best coaching money can buy for the past few months and has improved his game by maybe 22 shots a round. Lying about your handicap in golf is cheating not hussling and both Marc and Ram are not giving him a penny- if ivey had been truthful he would have still taken them for a couple of hundred grand but he got greedy and has sullied his name. Several huge names in oz were discusted by his behaviour and he flew home early. Some of the biggest names in poker have said they wouldn't give him a cent and Ivey has certainly come off not looking very good in this affair. Maybe marc will come on to confirm all this."

This really doesn't look very good for Phil.

[/ QUOTE ]


post/pm link, ty

[Rupert]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=19569.0

[amplify]

This is high-quality gossip.

[J.A.K.]

For that kind of money you are playing off of an established official HC card. Not that those can't be [censored] with but it's a big step towards legitimacy. If their card reads 83, 88, 85, 92, 82, and they come out and throw up a 74 I am gonna call BS. But at least you have a reference. I do not know the structure of their bet (stroke/match/wolf etc.) but I guarantee you for that kind of bank we are playing it by PGA rules. No improving your lie, mulligan, grounding your club, stroke+distance etc. A developing player will still struggle w/these and bunker shots, up/downhill lies, hardpan, etc. are huge assets to the scratch golfer in these situations of having to give up a lot of strokes. I would love to know the structure of the bets.

You can also adjust after so many holes in cases where an unknown or unestablished HC is at play, but this is stated before tee off.

[Flacks]

[ QUOTE ]
For that kind of money you are playing off of an established official HC card. Not that those can't be [censored] with but it's a big step towards legitimacy. If their card reads 83, 88, 85, 92, 82, and they come out and throw up a 74 I am gonna call BS. But at least you have a reference. I do not know the structure of their bet (stroke/match/wolf etc.) but I guarantee you for that kind of bank we are playing it by PGA rules. No improving your lie, mulligan, grounding your club, stroke+distance etc. A developing player will still struggle w/these and bunker shots, up/downhill lies, hardpan, etc. are huge assets to the scratch golfer in these situations of having to give up a lot of strokes. I would love to know the structure of the bets.

You can also adjust after so many holes in cases where an unknown or unestablished HC is at play, but this is stated before tee off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think these guys have established handicaps? A golf handicap is nothing but a lie on paper for most people. 95% of the people who do have a handicap have a false one because about 5% of the golfing public actually know and follow the rules.

Professional gamblers more than anyone else are the last to have a handicap.

As far as PGA rules go ( actually it's USGA rules) again you will find less than 5% of the public actually know the rules and you can be damn sure that high stakes gamblers have their own rules. The rules are layed out clearly before you go out and i can guarantee you that they dont resemble the rules that casual golfers play by. The best high stakes golfers are very good at getting even a scratch golfer off of their game by reworking the rules. It is usually more than just giving strokes.

There is almost always a provison if someone completely sandbags and above all else you will never get any action if you pull this stunt just once. Everyone has a good round occasionally but for the numbers the OP put out there Ivey would have had to have Tiger step in and play his ball or the other players had inflated their handicaps and have made a moronic bet. Both of which I doubt especially given the dollar amounts going back and forth.

Just as an example a bet between gamblers may have one guy playing the ball as it lies , no matter where it lies ( no OB etc) while another player in the same group may get to tee it up in the fairway. Whatever it takes to get the proper action. It usually revolves around nullifying the players strength. ( Read the book "Who's your caddy" for some great examples) Do you really think that Doyle plays bunker shots while using his crutch? There are provisions made in order for both him and his competitors to feel like they are getting the best possible chance to make money. It's a gigantic bargaining session before they tee off.

All of that being said, if Phils competiton got smoked that bad they have no one to blame but themselves for not getting a little backround info. I think the whole story is highly suspect.

I watched Phil play a year ago and I don't see this happening unless the other golfers were complete idiots (which I dont beleive) Could he have improved that much in a year? Doubtful even though I know he has friends who are great golfers and coach him.(All of the coaching and money in the world wont hit the ball for you.) Three hours a day for three months is not that much practice in the grand scheme of things. If he followed it up with about 54-72 holes a week then maybe but that would be info that ANYONE playing against him could get by talking to people around town.

On top of all that there probably would have been a provision if he did exactly what was described and the bet would have been reworked after X amount of holes.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
On top of all that there probably would have been a provision if he did exactly what was described and the bet would have been reworked after X amount of holes.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the issues, as I heard it, was the aggressiveness with which Ivey negotiated the bet, or prop bets in general. I heard something about Sagstrom wanting to quit and settle up after less than 9 holes, realizing (or believing) that Phil had lied to them, but Phil refused and tried to incur a 100K penalty or something (don't know if this has been covered, haven't read the entire thread). Then Sags walked off the course.

I have encountered people like this--who are very aggressive in their prop-betting, and they make it less-than-friendly in the process, knowing that the lust for action will eventually get their acquaintances to make a bad bet.

Edit: Also, it doesn't really matter who was hustling whom, or if someone thought they had an edge...It all sort of depends on the tone of the gambling and the relationships among the players. If it's hardcore competitive gambling, then be as ruthless as you can, and watch your back every step of the way

But if it's supposed to be friendlier-style gambling, there is a certain honor code which dictates all parties involved negotiate a spot that's somewhere near neutral EV, regardless of the stakes. Maybe I've got it wrong, and, in a world of hustlers, there is no honor and no obligation to treat one's opponents fairly. Maybe Ivey didn't do anything wrong, but there seems to be something unpleasant about a certain kind of edge-mongering.

[Matt24]

since we don't know how many strokes he was getting, this doesn't really matter, but for the sake of info Barry Greenstein told me in Tunica that Ivey was a 12 or 13.

[YeaYeaFaSho]

[ QUOTE ]
This is high-quality gossip.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is high quality posting

[AntonHeat]

Phil Ivey and Tiger lookalike lol