just shoot me now

[PokerBob]

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how do marginal blind steal hands make money?

1. both blinds fold
2. one blind calls and check folds the flop



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there is so much more to it than that.

[PokerSparky]

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how do marginal blind steal hands make money?

1. both blinds fold
2. one blind calls and check folds the flop



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there is so much more to it than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Most players can find infinite ways to lose money OOP.

[Guruman]

Miles,

I don't think we're really arguing against one another here and I think that fact suggests a non-intuitive answer:

if our bb doesnt get raised often enough by the button or sb then we can clearly be much tighter when we hold the button ourselves because our hand will get to see the flop (and therefore recognize most of its equity) for free too much from the bb.

if the button or sb steals too much when we are in the big blind, we can make a profitable counteradjustment by defending the bb normally, but raising more often on the button - essentially moving some of our blind defense money into steal money and playing that money from position instead of from out of position.

how does this impact what we should do with this hand vs an unknown? I don't know. I do steal with this from the button as a default at the small stakes I play at though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DeathDonkey]

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this is my argument. if a hand is -ev on the button 6handed, i cant figure out how it all of a sudden becomes profitable if we are 3handed.

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People are defending with a wider range 3 handed.

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yeah so you don't want to play the -EV hands because they'll actually be more -EV 3-handed since you won't even succeed in stealing as much as you would at a 6-handed table...

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This has to be wrong because consider this: let's say you could make a deal with your opponents, they will never fold preflop and you will never fold preflop on the button. This would be a great deal because you are guaranteed to be in a breakeven situation except for the fact that you have the best position every hand. It's possible you might do better by finding some hands to fold on the button but then they might not live up to their end of the deal (adjusting to you) and then you might find yourself in a worse situation where they play more correctly preflop against you because they realize you are playing tighter than they are so they change that.

Also, what if the SB always folded and the BB always called (this is more realistic than the other example) now you are playing a breakeven situation against the BB except you have position AND a dead SB in the pot.

-DeathDonkey

[Victor]

currently i open about 45% of my hands on the button regardless of how many ppl the hand starts with, 2-10.

can someone give suggestions for how to alter this range for 3handed?

or is it more a freguency thing? do i need to raise every few hands regardless of my hand.

[Surf]

[ QUOTE ]

if our bb doesnt get raised often enough by the button or sb then we can clearly be much tighter when we hold the button ourselves because our hand will get to see the flop (and therefore recognize most of its equity) for free too much from the bb.

if the button or sb steals too much when we are in the big blind, we can make a profitable counteradjustment by defending the bb normally, but raising more often on the button - essentially moving some of our blind defense money into steal money and playing that money from position instead of from out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Guru,

This line of thinking doesn't make much sense to me. It doesn't cost .5sbs / hand to play each of the 3 positions...if it did, we'd have a different strategy. When we are on the button, our only goal is to maximize the EV of that position(when it costs us nothing to see our cards) - the fact that the blind is 1 hand away or 4 hands away doesn't make a difference.

In your example the player to our left doesn't steal enough when it is our BB - this is great, since as you said we get more free flops and thus our earn in the BB is going to be higher - and may actually be positive in certain lineups since the SB position tends to do the worst 3handed.

Villain here is making a mistake when it is his button - we gain from it when we are in the BB. Our "optimal" play when it is our button is completely irrelevant WRT how he plays when it is his...if the BB when we have the button folds too much, it's open-season and we should be raising a huge range...we will profit separately both when it is our button, and when it is our BB - not by some mystical transfer-of-profit, but because our opponents are making mistakes in both situations.


DD:

It's kind of like playing a maniac. If the guy on our left (6handed) is 3betting us with the top 30-40% of his hands, we don't open-raise stuff like Q9s, right?
That would be foolish - we'd be forced to yield to his postflop aggression since we won't have enough hand to catch him most flops.
Now, if we only raised AT+ and 66+ we'd be able to snap him off nearly every time, he's making massive mistakes by reraising garbage against us, since he doesn't know we have completely blunted his bluff.

The principle is the same, we just moderate it because there is a point of diminishing returns w/ blind steals...any ace is far too strong, especially against players who are 3betting J-hi and T-hi hands from the SB, and against BBs who call a huge range...but the spread of profitable hands will be smaller, though we'll make more with the best portion of our range.

Surf

[Buffsta8]

Surf: good reasoning

ps I'm still gonna raise Q6s lol

[Victor]

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Surf: good reasoning

ps I'm still gonna raise Q6s lol

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and you missed the point.

[Regis]

Looks to me like BB has a weak T. Why not fold the turn?

[sublime]

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Looks to me like BB has a weak T. Why not fold the turn?

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because he doesnt have a T all that often...when he does he will 3-bet me and i can fold...when he doesnt, i get to protect my hand and get more money in while ahead.