Who's with me?

[Scotty.]

BB here is 93/9/1 over about 100 hands this session. He doesn't fold PF ever and doesn't fold flops ever. He has been randomly extremely aggressive but not often. About half the time he has the goods, and half complete air.

MP is 36/6 and generally fairly passive without a pretty strong hand.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero folds?

[jba]

oh , I thought you check/raised at first and thought this was horrible.

and no I dont fold, I call and donk if I hit.

[Flintoff]

I cant fold there scotty. I'd donk a rivered flush and check call if u pair up.

[ssmallz]

I check raise the flop. A bet won't likely win you the pot right away and you've got a ton of equity on the flop. Get as much money in on the flop as possible to make your life easier on the turn. On the turn your getting 8:2 which + at least 1 BB implied odds. Its close to fold b/c your pair outs aren't any good. I think its fine to fold here as MP is pretty huge and the pot is small.

[Guruman]

I don't like betting that flop if there is zero chance you'll buy it outright. Given your description of BB I don't see the value.

On the turn you're getting 4-1, so he only has to actually have J5, 56, or a better flush draw a small fraction to make a fold correct. This is of course assuming that he's incapable of this raise with A6 or some pocket pair that leaves you with pair outs. If he's ever got 99 here then you have to call.

[Nick C]

The fold seems good to me. MP's got a monster of some sort, I think. (When a passive player cold-calls the flop and then pops the turn, I get very worried.) Would he call two cold on the flop in a small pot with bottom pair? If not, it's looking like there's a very good chance you're drawing dead versus a boat or quads.

To be honest, I'm not sure why people are even bringing up pair outs. Look at the action. Unless the passive guy is making use of his read on the super-loose guy and is making a play (and I doubt it), the main question is how often your flush is going to be good if you hit it.

[suited89]

"I don't like betting that flop if there is zero chance you'll buy it outright. Given your description of BB I don't see the value."



but we have an equity edge so don't we get value for every bet that goes in?

[Guruman]

I don't really think he has any pair outs. I just said that because vs lots of players you will have pair outs and will have to call. I agree that he's probably good to muck here though.

re:the flop equity edge.

we only have an edge if the following are true
1)no one has a set
2)no one has a better draw
3)all four other players put a bet into the pot.

number three is the key, and when the action goes bet/raise we should puke twice because we just set up the action to drive the equity away from us. The perfect action with an equity edge would be for us to check, bb to bet, everyone to call, and us to checkraise the field.

If BB bets and dudes start folding then our equity edge on the bet goes out the window and we should just call. This is why pumping draws is so difficult in shorthaned games as opposed to full ring ones - its very difficult to guarantee multiway action that is both profitable and safe for our draw. In full ring its entirely possible for 5 or 6 guys to still be hanging on after the flop - and it is more in those situations than in these that we should be pumping - especially with non A or K draws.

[27offsooot]

I play it the same. You're getting 9:2 at best directly. Since u have to lead a river frush, u can maximaly get 11:2 on the turn w/ implied. You have, at most, 8 outs, so u need to get 4.75:1 or greater on the turn, so I think folding is def best when u consider all the not so good scenarios. Surprised most peeps are calling.

Flop i would c/c with this cast, but leading is fine too.

[sharpie]

Very nice post guruman.