Do you agree with the following statement?

[txag007]

Here is what we know:

1. There are over 300 prophesies in the Old Testament concerning the Messiah which were fulfilled by Jesus. Here are some of them:

Genesis 22:18 says the Messiah would be the seed of Abraham.

Genesis 21:12 says the Messiah would be born through the lineage of Isaac.

Numbers 24:17 says He would come from the lineage of Jacob.

Genesis 49:10 and Micah 5:2 say He would come from the tribe of Judah.

Micah 5:2 also says He would come from Bethlehem, which was fulfilled when Jesus was born there.

Isaiah 11:1 says He would come from the lineage of Jesse.

Jeremiah 23:5 says He would come from the lineage of David.

Psalm 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 say He will be presented with gifts from the kings of Sheba and Seba, which was fulfilled upon his birth.

And of course, the book of Daniel contains many Messianic prophecies as well. We know by analyzing the Dead Sea Scrolls that Daniel was written centuries before Jesus’ lived.

2. We can confirm several important details of Jesus’ life through the writings of early historians, many of whom were not Christians and did not support Christianity. Some of these early writers and historians are as follows:

Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (born 52-54 A.D.)

Lucian of Samosata (lived in 2nd century)

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born 37 A.D.)

Gentile writer Thallus (writing in 52 A.D.)

Phlegon (first century historian)

Justin Martyr (writing in 150 A.D.)

3. Early Christians suffered persecution even to the point of death for their beliefs. We know this also through the writings of early historians, such as the ones mentioned above. Yet even still, the church grew exponentially and other religions disappeared.

4. The early apostles and church founders did not grow rich and powerful because of the church. They also suffered because of Christ and died willingly died horrible deaths. Peter even asked to be crucified upside down because, as he put it, he didn’t deserve to die in the same manner as his savior.

But this isn’t sufficient evidence to confirm the truth of the Bible, you say. That’s not my point. We gather this information from sources apart from the Bible, so it is with this knowledge that I ask you the following: If a) it’s not true and b) it’s not a conspiracy, what is your theory on the rise of Christianity?

How did it happen?

How could it have happened?

[Phil153]

Your prophecies are nonsense, on many levels. As is the large part of your "historical evidence". Many intelligent and learned Christians agree with me, so I have no interest discussing it. Perhaps someone else can explain it to you.

As for the rest of it, they are reasonable questions. But it's not my job to teach you history or psychology. If you answer my post:

[ QUOTE ]
txag,

have you ever heard of the Sai Baba? Because his existence and following, even in this modern age, proves how easily these fables can arise and gain a following, without widespread conspiracy.


[/ QUOTE ]

then I'll answer yours. Explain to me how a known fraud can get ten million committed followers in this scientific age, without a " MASSIVE amount of 'cooperation' over decades. An amount FAR IN EXCESS of any other fudging of data known to man."

Can you see the parallels between this and the Jesus story? Can you see a how a myth gets replicated, and gains fervent believers? If not, do you realize this happened in every ancient civilization on Earth, and that some of these religions (for example, Islam, which you shun, and Hinduism, which you shun) also have hundreds of millions or billions of followers, and holy books, and fulfilled prophecies, and martyrs. Don't you see that those SAME arguments you use, if logically valid, can be equally used to undermine Christianity?

It's a big world out there. Open your eyes, and get back to me when you have.

[FortunaMaximus]

Considering the state of Christianity today, things could have been a lot worse.

That I'll grant you, txag, where other atheists won't.

But there's no doubt about the exploitation that they got up to over the centuries and that they still do get up to today.

There had better be a damn good reason. Can you state them in a sustainable proof, without faith-derived bias?

[Prodigy54321]

1) you've started long discussions on the prophesies before...I forget which thread it's in...but I'm sure we've discussed it before..

2) what does this have to do with cooperation or conspiracy?..I agree that this guy we call Jesus probably existed.

3) yes..they probably believed in their religion..just as muslims who give their lives for theirs.

4)again...I don't know of specific people's motives, so they may have consciously decieved people, but I would guess that most of them truly believed

How does all of this back up your argument?..none of this seems to show signs that a huge conspiracy was needed.

[txag007]

Compare the religions you mention to Christianity:

How many of them were founded following the death of their "founder"?

If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
3. Early Christians suffered persecution even to the point of death for their beliefs. We know this also through the writings of early historians, such as the ones mentioned above. Yet even still, the church grew exponentially and other religions disappeared.

4. The early apostles and church founders did not grow rich and powerful because of the church. They also suffered because of Christ and died willingly died horrible deaths. Peter even asked to be crucified upside down because, as he put it, he didn’t deserve to die in the same manner as his savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these the only cult members to ever die rather than renounce their beliefs?

The Heaven's Gate cult members all killed themselves, does that increase the likelihood that their beliefs were true?

Which is more probable if we consider the death of Peter?

A. He died because Jesus was the Son of God.
B. He died because he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are sill persuasive ones fooling the naive. They are called missionaries.

[Prodigy54321]

txag, you're not doing a very good job of showing how this "information" you provide relates to your OP and whether or not a huge conspiracy is needed.

and you still have explained what you take parts of the quote to mean..

please tell us what you are considering 'cooperation'.. and what 'false' means there

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
Compare the religions you mention to Christianity:

How many of them were founded following the death of their "founder"?

If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

[/ QUOTE ]
The naive fool themselves. That's the whole point that you're not getting.

Islam didn't become a bona fide religion until after Muhammed's death. He had followers just like Jesus. He was also considered a prophet while alive. And 1.3 billion people believe in him today. Must be a conspiracy, right? I don't know enough about Hinduism to offer any insight.

Does your whole point rest on the idea that the religion was founded after his death? You're really grasping at straws here. If anything, it shows that someone was smart enough to invent a good fable. Or that a story about a spiritual man got twisted in later decades and turned into a religion, perhaps for the purposes of rebellion from occupiers. Not that I'm saying that happened. But what does founding after his death have to do with anything?

You still haven't offered an explanation for the Sai Baba.

[txag007]

So your theory is that Jesus existed and the church founders truly believed he was resurrected three days after his death. Do you believe they were mistaken? If so, how do you explain the 500 people Jesus appeared to at one time? If this didn't happen, then the church founders were lying. What would be their motivation for lying? They didn't gain power or money from it, they died because of it, and unlike the beliefs of radical Islamic terrorists there, would have been no reward waiting for them in heaven. So why do it?