$100NL Triple barrelled whiffed nfd

[allaboutmyfetti]

I can't think of what hands call 2 streets but fold the river ... except for maybe a worse flush draw

[ChipStorm]

Villain could be drawing with either [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s or JT.

matrix, I've had that same experience of checking the river and losing to a better busted hand, so as played, I genuflect to fim and bet the river too.

But I would check the turn, and maybe even the flop. As NLHETAP says, tend to semibluff more when your draw is not to the nuts, than when it is. You have a nut draw, and you're being offered free cards on both the flop and turn. And unlikely as it may be, if any overflushing is going down this hand, you're going to be on the happy end of it.

So against the strong possibility that villain may be calling down with a better hand than we have, and the small chance that we have a draw to stackage, I definitely check the turn; and depending on how the table is playing, maybe even the flop.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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I genuflect to fim and bet the river too.


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Link? Is this referencing an earlier post or something?

[matrix]

You haven't read the stickies (????)

fimbulwinter post

3. Not river bluffing when it's hopeless and you've been betting. say you've been betting a flush and gutshot draw and its the river with 30 bucks in the pot and the probable drawer checks to you. almost all 25NL players check behind here and i can't say how many times two draws were shown down in these types of pots. the bluff doesnt and shouldnt be big, you just want them to lay down a higher nopair than you have. remember that this only has to work a small amount of time if you're betting 1/3 pot, and the times I try it i'd guess it works about 50% of the time, so take that EV.

This is kind of my thinking behind my river push here (yes I'm bluffing "big" - but I can't see less than a push here being called if villains spiked some crap pair on the turn/river given how big my stack is in relation to the pot)

Also if I check behind an observant villain will see what cards I'm betting with here - if he folds he doesn't get to see my hand.

[bilbo-san]

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You haven't read the stickies (????)

fimbulwinter post

3. Not river bluffing when it's hopeless and you've been betting. say you've been betting a flush and gutshot draw and its the river with 30 bucks in the pot and the probable drawer checks to you. almost all 25NL players check behind here and i can't say how many times two draws were shown down in these types of pots. the bluff doesnt and shouldnt be big, you just want them to lay down a higher nopair than you have. remember that this only has to work a small amount of time if you're betting 1/3 pot, and the times I try it i'd guess it works about 50% of the time, so take that EV.

This is kind of my thinking behind my river push here (yes I'm bluffing "big" - but I can't see less than a push here being called if villains spiked some crap pair on the turn/river given how big my stack is in relation to the pot)

Also if I check behind an observant villain will see what cards I'm betting with here - if he folds he doesn't get to see my hand.

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Thing is, fim is betting there to get better draws to fold.

That would apply to this hand if YOU were pushing JT hoping villain folds the NFD. But this is the other way around -- you essentially have the nut no-pair here and this doesn't apply; you have the best hand very, very often if he was drawing, and if he wasn't drawing, he probably won't fold.

[bobman0330]

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3. Not river bluffing when it's hopeless and you've been betting. say you've been betting a flush and gutshot draw and its the river with 30 bucks in the pot and the probable drawer checks to you. almost all 25NL players check behind here and i can't say how many times two draws were shown down in these types of pots. the bluff doesnt and shouldnt be big, you just want them to lay down a higher nopair than you have. remember that this only has to work a small amount of time if you're betting 1/3 pot, and the times I try it i'd guess it works about 50% of the time, so take that EV.

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This is the sort of bluff you should be making with small diamonds, not big ones.

EDIT: To clarify, you need to focus on what you want your opponent to fold. Fim talks about making people fold your hand when he has even worse. A standard 3-barrel bluff generally intends to make people fold something like a good TP or if you have more balls than sense, an overpair. The first bluff works because there are lots of hands better than yours that can't stand up to even a small bet. The second bluff works because most hands (played by solid players) won't stand up to a huge amount of betting. You seem to be trying to bluff a very small class of hands (draws that turned or rivered pairs) and you're spending a lot of money to do it. It's just not worth it, unless you have a read that you can fold more than the bizarro improved draws.

[keikiwai]

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3. Not river bluffing when it's hopeless and you've been betting. say you've been betting a flush and gutshot draw and its the river with 30 bucks in the pot and the probable drawer checks to you. almost all 25NL players check behind here and i can't say how many times two draws were shown down in these types of pots. the bluff doesnt and shouldnt be big, you just want them to lay down a higher nopair than you have. remember that this only has to work a small amount of time if you're betting 1/3 pot, and the times I try it i'd guess it works about 50% of the time, so take that EV.

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This is the sort of bluff you should be making with small diamonds, not big ones.

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exactly, if river is check check, and villain turns over a busted draw.... you win!

don't fold out the busted draws if you beat them

[matrix]

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This is the sort of bluff you should be making with small diamonds, not big ones.

EDIT: To clarify, you need to focus on what you want your opponent to fold. A standard 3-barrel bluff generally intends to make people fold something like a good TP or if you have more balls than sense, an overpair. You seem to be trying to bluff a very small class of hands (draws that turned or rivered pairs) and you're spending a lot of money to do it. It's just not worth it, unless you have a read that you can fold more than the bizarro improved draws.

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thanks for the feedback [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have been burned lots recently by these bizarro draws so am probably letting my results get to me here.

For the record this is the 1st 3rd barrel push I've made at $100NL - it's not something I do often tho I think it IS something I need to do once in a while I just need to pick a better spot to do it in.

[ChipStorm]

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I genuflect to fim and bet the river too.


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Link? Is this referencing an earlier post or something?

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Ohhhh, yeah. See #3

[ChipStorm]

Missed it by *that* much....