ed miller says fold

[prayformojo]

Ed gives a very good explanation of his reasoning on the site, which probably has more detail and analysis that you're going to get here. I won't repeat the answer here, but the original question was as follows:

[ QUOTE ]
Specifically, there have been 3 limpers, the CO raises to 7x the big blind, and you are on the button with 67s. NLTP suggests calling a raiser with this hand , but tighten up if the raise is more than 4x the BB. However, this player ( solid ) is raising more because of the limpers and of course the pot is bigger because of limpers.

There are blinds and limpers to act behind you preflop. It is raised preflop about 75% of the time but not a lot of limp- reraising has been seen. My question is 2 parts actually–what would be “best ” in this situation and what are the most important variables ( know you couldn’t list them all ) to factor in your decision in situations where there are limpers, you have the button and poor relative preflop position? ( Stacks are mostly 100x bb ).

Thank you for any help.

[/ QUOTE ]

All that stuff in there? That's detail. Detail's pretty important in NL hold'em (and in limit for that matter). It's what gets you more than a one line answer such as "always call if it's less than 10%".

And yes, you should buy NLTAP.

[thefoosball]

ya i know details. but im saying that he is talking about making a pair with 67s but i dont get why. i mean you dont play 67s because you want a 6 or whatever you want a flush or straight. so why is he explaining why a pair sucks?

[jii]

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, you should buy NLTAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are very different opinions about that in this forum. Some of the ideas in that book are horrible IMO, it has its good moments also.

SSNL stickies > NLTAP

[prayformojo]

[ QUOTE ]
ya i know details. but im saying that he is talking about making a pair with 67s but i dont get why. i mean you dont play 67s because you want a 6 or whatever you want a flush or straight. so why is he explaining why a pair sucks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is illustrating his position. His response is not about how to play a flopped pair, it's about figuring out what you want to accomplish when you call pre-flop. No offence, but if you are looking to challenge Ed Miller, why not do so on his website?

[HaiaN]

I call raises with SCs all day long ... sometimes I reraise though.

[4_2_it]

Wow, this is a pretty standard fold. I love to have 67s on the button, but I do not like calling 7bb raises with them or playing them HU against a PFR. Now, if I am the one raising limpers then I like it fine.

Occasionally re-raising to mix it up is fine, but against a player described as solid (I assume that means he can lay down his QQ when you shove that 345 flop) I have no problem folding this.

Just think. You are calling 7bbs to flop 2-pair or better. One of you math guys calculate how much you need to win on average to make that call profitable. SCs play well multi-way, not in HU raised (or re-raised) pots.

LOL at SSNL questioning Ed's thought process here.

[thefoosball]

i didnt post on his site b/c i want to know if hes wrong or im wrong so i asked here b/c you guys know more than me. i guess i should ask him to but hes just gonna say the same thing again right?

ty about his book. jii what do you think is horrible in it? i heard it was good but im still reading his limit book so its gonna be a while before i get to it.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
i didnt post on his site b/c i want to know if hes wrong or im wrong so i asked here b/c you guys know more than me. i guess i should ask him to but hes just gonna say the same thing again right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed is a pretty reasonable guy. Just pose a reasonable question and I think you will get an answer. Tell him it seems his answer ignores the 5/10 rule and does not appear to fully take in to account implied odds. Ask him a specific question. Tell him how you would play it and why.

I spent some time with him this summer and he seemed to have a solid handle on SSNL play.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, this is a pretty standard fold. I love to have 67s on the button, but I do not like calling 7bb raises with them or playing them HU against a PFR. Now, if I am the one raising limpers then I like it fine.

Occasionally re-raising to mix it up is fine, but against a player described as solid (I assume that means he can lay down his QQ when you shove that 345 flop) I have no problem folding this.

Just think. You are calling 7bbs to flop 2-pair or better. One of you math guys calculate how much you need to win on average to make that call profitable. SCs play well multi-way, not in HU raised (or re-raised) pots.

LOL at SSNL questioning Ed's thought process here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

You can't call with 67s here for value alone.

You could call if you think you can use your positional advantage to sometimes win the hand unimproved, but that requires a great deal more info than the fact that villain raised some limpers. You'd have to know a lot about how the villain plays postflop, for instance, and whether or not the blinds/limpers are likely to call (because trying to win unimproved in multi-way pot is a horrible idea).