MLET Challenge: Labatt Action

[OziBattler]

Alright Microers,

let me break this down for you and keep it simple. The main point of discussion here should probably be me defending my SB (which in this blind structure is actually a BB) with J8s.

Simply put, I (correctly) put Bravos on a wide range with his hijack raise and 3 bet J8s light. This was very borderline for me. I took a chance and it worked (hoorah). Thrakkar tells me after the hand that there is a fine line between being a genius and an idiot. Which side of the line do you think I fell on to here?

Bravos says he was suprised that I 3 bet with J8s and that he gaurantees I wouldnt do that in a regular game. This is correct. I would pull not this move against an unknown or even your typical player at 0.5/1 but Bravos is anything but a typical donk because he can actually play a decent game that includes using the fold button. I figured the first few hands might be played standard postflop and that I would get a fair idea of where i was at postflop in this hand. That is, if played back at I would be backing off quickly.

[MrWookie]

I think it's fine in this situation...once. I wouldn't make it a plan to 3bet J8s here regularly, but even if you were to, it's a much smaller mistake given the blind structure. You have more to win, and less that you have to risk to try and win it. Randomizing your play here is fine to make your ranges appear broader than they really are.

[VickreyAuction]

Anyone else notice that the blind structure is screwed up?

[MrWookie]

Yes. This was part of the game.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. This was part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

and it is still screwing w/ my pot odd/size calcs [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Brain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. This was part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

and it is still screwing w/ my pot odd/size calcs [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the rake. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Smurph64]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. This was part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

and it is still screwing w/ my pot odd/size calcs [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the rake. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Shh! They don't know I am going to rake the entire amount at the end of the tournament yet. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright Microers,

let me break this down for you and keep it simple. The main point of discussion here should probably be me defending my SB (which in this blind structure is actually a BB) with J8s.

Simply put, I (correctly) put Bravos on a wide range with his hijack raise and 3 bet J8s light. This was very borderline for me. I took a chance and it worked (hoorah). Thrakkar tells me after the hand that there is a fine line between being a genius and an idiot. Which side of the line do you think I fell on to here?

Bravos says he was suprised that I 3 bet with J8s and that he gaurantees I wouldnt do that in a regular game. This is correct. I would pull not this move against an unknown or even your typical player at 0.5/1 but Bravos is anything but a typical donk because he can actually play a decent game that includes using the fold button. I figured the first few hands might be played standard postflop and that I would get a fair idea of where i was at postflop in this hand. That is, if played back at I would be backing off quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have to say I think it sucked. You correctly noted that you're behind to anything like a reasonable range for raiser and you don't offer any justification this side of machismo for reraising.

What does "backing off very quickly" mean, Aussie? Are you folding to a raise on the flop? I'm guessing not but you will have ended up putting in quite a few bets against any ace -- a fair bit of his range, after all -- and bigger jacks -- less likely for him but also in his range. And even if raised, you could well be ahead on this drawy flop so you'll likely be giving a free card on the turn. I think a lot of hands that he might have are raising you here. But what are you doing if you miss? Firing anyway, hoping he missed too? Just c/fing?

Maybe defending your blind by just calling the raise and c/ring anything you hit might have been better with a weakish hand like this? Or just calling and seeing, best of all. I'd like to see a bit more of a justification for reraising. What does it achieve? I often wonder why exactly players are so keen to reraise out of the blinds. Are you trying to confuse raiser into thinking you have a stronger hand than you do? Would that be worth the many bets this strategy will lose you over time? If not that, what?

[Guruman]

the reason its better to reraise than to call is because this particular opponent can fold a made hand postflop, has a wide range that may need to connect to continue, and if we both catch we can win a huge pot.

this type of move can be more dangerous vs an opponent who is willing to make moves on you after showing preflop strength, but I honestly don't think that this was the case here.

[OziBattler]

drzen,

[ QUOTE ]
Im expecting that Bravos is raising any pair, any broadway, any ace, any king, any queen (except with maybe a really bad kicker), many suited connectors/1 gappers. That’s a pretty wide range. I also plugged in J8s into pokerstove versus the top 40% of hands and depending on what I hands I use I was at worst a 40/60 dog (all calculations approximate).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a reasonable range. although low carded connectors and some low suited connectors/1gappers could be mucked too. Anywho, its a range similar to what I would be using to steal. if its playable its raisable.

it should be noted that Ive admitted this was borderline and this should be interpreted to mean that if the raise came from even an earlier position or my cards were just a little weaker then I probably wouldnt have pulled this raise.

Strangely enough, my respect for bravos allowed me to do this since I know he will know about position, he knows to raise anything playable here and he knows how to fold. Yes I got a little lucky in that he had a hand at the bottom of his range but after I 3 bet he has to hit the flop.

Now, it would have been interesting to see what I would have done if I wiffed and i wont give away all my secrets (cos I havent thought them up yet [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

When I say I can back off quickly I say this because when I look at that flop I realise that if I get played back at its going to mean he has something he likes. I figured a screwplay was unlikely on hand #1.

this is where my preflop works in my favour. that flop is gunna look scary for him if he doesnt have at least 2nd pair or a nice flushdraw.

FWIW and with a grain of salt I considered there to be the following lines here
1. I bet and he folds
2. flop is bet/call and i get raised on the turn. I would probably muck it at this point since that raise would be telling me he has me beat
3. flop is bet/raise and I call. I would maybe intepret this as a flushdraw looking for a free card and might have donked the turn and folded to a raise. honestly, it depends.
4. I bet and get called down and lose to a weak ace or better jack.

yeah, also metagame....I also am gunna get some sweet sweet action on the following hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]