The war on faith.

[luckyme]

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I understand your position, I think. I think our difference is that you are adopting a "How could we know?" position and I am adopting an "Is it true?" position.

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Nope. I'm claiming ( among a few other things) that once we realize that we are selectively choosing what 'truths' we are getting from the bible, the bible itself is not actually contributing anything. I'm not asking "how could we know" because the 2 billion personal interpretations out there show that we can't.

I read a poem, it brings tears to my eyes. My buddy reads it and bursts out laughing. Is the message in the poem or are we creating it?

I don't buy your story about reaching the xtrian god sansbible. At least I've never heard of the missionaries stumbling into the clearing and the natives were saying hail mary's ( hey, it's an analogy).

luckyme. ok,ok, I don't know what we're debating ...but you're wrong !! ;-)

[bunny]

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Nope. I'm claiming ( among a few other things) that once we realize that we are selectively choosing what 'truths' we are getting from the bible, the bible itself is not actually contributing anything.

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I havent realized that. I dont think I am choosing, I think I am struggling to find the truth and failing a lot. Nonetheless, I think I am succeeding some of the time and that is a good thing.

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I'm not asking "how could we know" because the 2 billion personal interpretations out there show that we can't.

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It seems like most of the objections you've made in this thread have focussed on - the bible is valueless because we cant know if we're right or not - no?

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I read a poem, it brings tears to my eyes. My buddy reads it and bursts out laughing. Is the message in the poem or are we creating it?

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I think it has content and I think the two of you are interpreting that content differently. I would think it odd if you were claiming that the poet had no part in the creation of the message.

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I don't buy your story about reaching the xtrian god sansbible. At least I've never heard of the missionaries stumbling into the clearing and the natives were saying hail mary's ( hey, it's an analogy).

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I think the paraphernalia of religion (when to stand up in church, how exactly one should sacrifice a goat, etc etc) is not important. I certainly didnt mean to imply that one could become aware of what is in the bible through personal inspection or somesuch.

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luckyme. ok,ok, I don't know what we're debating ...but you're wrong !! ;-)

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I concede.

[luckyme]

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I think it has content and I think the two of you are interpreting that content differently. I would think it odd if you were claiming that the poet had no part in the creation of the message.

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I worship at the alter of Sokal. I'm not a postmodernist. Sure the poet may have had a message he was tryng to send, but my sentimental extraction and my buddies humorous one stand on equal ground ( we treat each other as equally valid beings), so in that sense the message of the poet is irrelevant "virtually useless" since what we get out of it obviously depends on what we're bringing to it.

There certainly is no reason to think any 'enlightenment' that I ( or my buddy, or his gfriend, or...) extract from it .. and it may be a biggie and life-changing is an inherent property of and targeted message from the poem.

good luck on finding somebody who arrived at a belief in a xtrian god ( sans trappings) prior to exposure to a bible-peddlar of sorts.

luckyme

[bunny]

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I worship at the alter of Sokal. I'm not a postmodernist. Sure the poet may have had a message he was tryng to send, but my sentimental extraction and my buddies humorous one stand on equal ground ( we treat each other as equally valid beings), so in that sense the message of the poet is irrelevant "virtually useless" since what we get out of it obviously depends on what we're bringing to it.

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It partly depends on you and partly on the message. I would still maintain that two christians interpreting the bible and coming to two different views are more likely to get closer to god's intended message than if they interpret winnie the pooh (again assuming that the bible was divinely inspired and then modified). This is even if they disagree or form diametrically opposed viewpoints. We cant tell if either of them is correct - it doesnt mean one of them isnt.

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There certainly is no reason to think any 'enlightenment' that I ( or my buddy, or his gfriend, or...) extract from it .. and it may be a biggie and life-changing is an inherent property of and targeted message from the poem.

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I am claiming the poem was a necessary condition for the exact enlightenment you experienced (different stimuli would produce slightly different enlightenment). So I would claim that it's inherent properties were at least partly responsible for your enlightenment, yes.

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good luck on finding somebody who arrived at a belief in a xtrian god ( sans trappings) prior to exposure to a bible-peddlar of sorts.

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I wouldnt expect to be able to find anybody (I live in a society which has evolved from a christian society so cant imagine anybody who doesnt know about christianity at some level). My whole reason for maintaining a belief in God is based on personal experience - without that I am an atheist. Again I am not trying to demonstrate it is true, I am saying it is possibly true (and in my view has to be true if theism is correct) that you can know god without the bible.

[Le Sug]

Care to expand on the personal experiences which convinced you god exists?

[bunny]

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Care to expand on the personal experiences which convinced you god exists?

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Not very well - I made an effort in this thread.

Briefly I was an atheist who discovered I believed and spent a long time trying to find a better explanation than God. I dont think I've found one yet, so I claim to be a rational theist.

Having said that, I dont consider my choice of religion to be a rational decision - I cant think of a way to rationally choose between all the religions on offer which is annoying, but a fact of life.