The war on faith.

[madnak]

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Um, Jesus Christ. You know, the source of Christianity? Care to point out where he advocates going to war in the name of his religion?

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By his acceptance of the Old Testament, and his support of it as the divine word of God, he advocates war in a very deep sense. But just because the OT is where all the conquerin' happens doesn't mean Jesus was as pacifistic as people claim.

Keep in mind the ancient scholars read the same words you do, and went to war based on them. In fact, they read the original Greek and were therefore closer to what Jesus actually said. Again, how come your interpretation is better than theirs? Better than clergy who devoted their lives to Christianity, the kings who accepted the Christian God as the only authority over them, the priests who went around violently stamping out "evil" as per (according to their belief) the dictates of Jesus? WHY are you right and they wrong? You're going to use the book they studied endlessly to prove that?

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Saying that Christians, in general, "encourage war" might be the most ridiculous uneducated statement I've ever read. Yes, we may say war is inevitable in certain cases to stop a greater evil.

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Oh, like with the Midianites? Or was it the Crusades?

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But to say that Christianity "encourages war"... well um, I guess you can believe whatever you want to believe (have faith in your ignorance I guess).

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Really. Last I checked it was the most religious people who were most in support of unjust wars. And typically it's the religious who ultimately initiate them! Just look at the war in Iraq - are you seriously claiming that it wasn't Christian-motivated, or at least that Christians weren't in favor of it more than atheists? If so, you're not too well-educated yourself.

[Matt R.]

Christian motivated??? I have never, ever heard that the war in Iraq was Christian motivated. The administration claims it was over WMD's. Everyone else claims they are lying and says that it was over oil. Or power. Who on earth (besides you) claims that this is a religious war?!

I have no idea if Christians were "more in favor" of it then atheists. Is there some type of poll that I'm unaware of? If there is, I would venture that it is because of political affiliations rather than religious teachings. Again, you're blaming the religion because people affilitiated with a religion have some viewpoint (even if the viewpoint has nothing to do with the religion itself).

I don't have the time nor the inclination to research the teachings of ancient Greek scholars. To put it bluntly -- I highly doubt any scholars went to war BECAUSE of Jesus' teachings. Again, maybe the rulers of the day claimed Jesus said they should have more power, thus they should kill people. Whatever. All I know is that I went to a Catholic school from kindergarten through high school, and never once was Jesus asserted to be "pro-war". He may have endorsed certain aspects of the Old Testament, but the *primary* message behind a lot of his teachings was to change the way the people of the day thought of the old testament. Maybe you can provide some evidence that Jesus was "pro-war", but I'm sorry if I take 15 years of religious education over the word of an agnostic or atheist. I have no reason to try to look it up without seeing some evidence first, because 15 years of legitimate religious study tells me you are wrong (most of it was directly from texts such as the Bible, so I have no reason to think my teachers were putting a "spin" on anything).

[luckyme]

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I have no reason to try to look it up without seeing some evidence first, because 15 years of legitimate religious study tells me you are wrong

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Tom Cruise ... is that you ??

[Matt R.]

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I have no reason to try to look it up without seeing some evidence first, because 15 years of legitimate religious study tells me you are wrong

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Tom Cruise ... is that you ??

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luckyme,
I assume you think professor's with Ph.D.'s in religious studies are like Tom Cruise as well? I learned from (mostly) very good teachers. Equating any type of religious education with Tom Cruise's mentality demonstrates your biases and ignorance.

[luckyme]

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I assume you think professor's with Ph.D.'s in religious studies are like Tom Cruise as well? I learned from (mostly) very good teachers. Equating any type of religious education with Tom Cruise's mentality demonstrates your biases and ignorance.

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No, I was just referring to you :-)
But if we're going to fall back on the 'my daddy' argument, you have to keep in mind that any major religion past or present has their Phd teachers, people that devoted their lives to the study. It's your dismissal of their study and your insistance that yours is 'true' that is tom cruisish.
hope that's clearer,

luckyme

[Matt R.]

luckyme,
WTF, can you not read?? I said this:

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I actually believe (more or less) that all major religions are "equally correct" if you will -- they just have different interpretations of spiritual/metaphysical/whatever ideas.

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in this very thread. If you cannot read, I cannot debate with you. Your ignorant posts based on stuff I've never said are very clear. I hope the above quote makes my position "clear" to you, although I'm not holding my breath.

And as for this:

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No, I was just referring to you :-)

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What, exactly then, do you know about my religious education that allows you to compare me with Tom Cruise's fanaticism?

Here, let me finish your argument for you, "U study religun... der der derbi der religion bad!@%.... der doobie do, you brainwashed like scienciloogy tom cruse!!419... m"

[John21]

I'm confused. When Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," love one another," "do unto others, etc..." what he really meant was to go kill people?

Let me get this straight:
If Jesus says I shouldn't kill people,
And I believe in Jesus and yet kill people,
Jesus is the cause of their death?

To paraphase the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people": religions don't kill people, people kill people.

If you want to remove the concept of personal responsiblity, that's fine. But if you do explain to me why I shouldn't blame the atheistical philosophy that was prevalent in communist russia for the atrocities they committed?

People where killing each other long before religion came on the scene.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused. When Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," love one another," "do unto others, etc..." what he really meant was to go kill people?

Let me get this straight:
If Jesus says I shouldn't kill people,
And I believe in Jesus and yet kill people,
Jesus is the cause of their death?

To paraphase the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people": religions don't kill people, people kill people.

If you want to remove the concept of personal responsiblity, that's fine. But if you do explain to me why I shouldn't blame the atheistical philosophy that was prevalent in communist russia for the atrocities they committed?

People where killing each other long before religion came on the scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

Near as I can tell, you're arguing with yourself. At least, I'm not familar with the atheist philosophical position ( other than the obvious 'I don't believe in a god' one). Could you point to a shortish source where the other tenets are listed? you've my curiousity perked up.

thanks, luckyme

[Matt R.]

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At least, I'm not familar with the atheist philosophical position ( other than the obvious 'I don't believe in a god' one). Could you point to a shortish source where the other tenets are listed?

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OK, so you're allowed to claim that Christianity is evil because some Christians advocate war, even though it has no basis in Christian teachings.

So, when John brings up the obvious in that certain atheists in the past have been proponents of immoral wars, we aren't allowed to associate atheism with war because they have nothing to do with each other.

This thread is [censored] hilarious.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
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At least, I'm not familar with the atheist philosophical position ( other than the obvious 'I don't believe in a god' one). Could you point to a shortish source where the other tenets are listed?

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OK, so you're allowed to claim that Christianity is evil because some Christians advocate war, even though it has no basis in Christian teachings.

So, when John brings up the obvious in that certain atheists in the past have been proponents of immoral wars, we aren't allowed to associate atheism with war because they have nothing to do with each other.

This thread is [censored] hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]

JESUS CHRIST! He is claiming that Christianity is violent because the Bible teaches violence! THAT is why he is claiming it. NOT because of violent acts perpetrated by Christians. Not because of the Crusades. The Bible itself promotes violence. Thats his point.

Then, you just dismissed all of that, by saying that you knew the true interpretation, and in fact all of the violence in the Bible is really misinterpreted, or whatever your slant was. And THAT is when he brought up that millions of Christians for thousands of years seem to disagree with YOUR interpretation that the Bible is all about pacifism. Can you understand the seperation now? The Bible would promote violence whether any Christian in the history of the world had never so much as given a charlie horse. Thats his assertion. Countering that with "No, nu-uh, Bible says these things but they are just kidding" is what opens up the topic of the violent history of Christians themselves.