Several Curtains Hands (Comments apreciated)

[arhz]

***** Hand History for Game 4766309288 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $109 Buy-in Trny:26246577 Level:6 Blinds(300/600)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: fishflyfish ( $1844 )
Seat 2: swinuk ( $5504 )
Seat 5: curtains_ ( $1375 )
Seat 3: DoYouSeeWhy ( $2892 )
Seat 7: LobWedgePhil ( $3200 )
Seat 4: Chironomid ( $2232 )
Seat 8: olol34 ( $2953 )
Trny:26246577 Level:6
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtains_ [ Kc Qh ]
DoYouSeeWhy is all-In.
Chironomid folds.
curtains_ folds. ?????
LobWedgePhil calls [2892].
olol34 folds.
fishflyfish folds.
swinuk folds.
DoYouSeeWhy shows [ Kh, 4s ]

I think we can review a call here of course it is better to have a smaller stack & later position for this call but still....

***** Hand History for Game 4766329149 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $109 Buy-in Trny:26246635 Level:6 Blinds(300/600)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 8: curtains_ ( $1540 )
Seat 5: tribipazos ( $9430 )
Seat 6: bauerboy2 ( $5527 )
Seat 7: DoYouSeeWhy ( $3503 )
Trny:26246635 Level:6
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtains_ [ 8h 6s ]
bauerboy2 folds.
DoYouSeeWhy folds.
curtains_ is all-In.
tribipazos calls [940].

BB calling range is almost always 100%
Even if BB calling range is 75% (in which I don't beleive) Our push is -0,7%.... Am I missing something ???

[Indiana]

Yah that first hand is a call. I think he made a mistake there. 2nd hand I fold but I don't think its as big a mistake.

Indy

[peek-a-boo]

1st one isn't that close. Pusher's range through this many isn't near wide enough (read - HIS push was a mistake).

2nd one might not be "+", but likely his last change to push HU, it may be better than the alternative.

[mackthefork]

I can see why he folds 1, although I think a call is normally +$EV here.

2 is -$EV but that doesn't mean it isn't better than folding, he might be able to do a lot here with ~3300, and quite often everyone gets cosy while there is a short stack and concentrates solely on their elimination before tackling each other. Of course I wasn't there so I don't know if this was the case.

Regards Mack

[Indiana]

[ QUOTE ]
1st one isn't that close. Pusher's range through this many isn't near wide enough (read - HIS push was a mistake).

2nd one might not be "+", but likely his last change to push HU, it may be better than the alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you put that first hand through SNGPT with a reasonable range on the open pusher? You will see that calling is better.

Indy

[peek-a-boo]

UTG's range through THIS many, including a short SB and a monster BB, should be somewhere in the 10%-17% range.

Hero needs 44/A9 when facing 15%.

-.5 with this KQo


Edit: Tossing in overcalls from the herd behind (unfactored here) would negate an attempt to loosen UTG more. His push was simply a mistake. This post made without showing pushers cards might make for a more interesting post.

[Confused1]

I fold #1 every time. I give a lot of respect to a push with that many to act, way more than KQ calls. You might be ahead, but that's left to gamblers.

on #2, there is no such thing as a 100% calling range. With any folding equity, I think this is a push. If he doubles up, he can make a run at first.

[Austiger]

I play them both the same.

[Pudge714]

Running theses plays through SNGPT won't help that much because these plays is taken would be taking -EV plays, instead of more -EV plays in the future.

[morgan180]

1. for a call here to be right he has to be certain that the all-in raiser is pushing with >23% of the possible holdings (22+,A2+,KJo+,K9s+,QJs). with 7 people left (even at 300/600) can we say with confidence that the UTG all-in raiser is pushing something less than the above? personally there's no way i'm calling my stack off with KQo. plus he can push in to some of the shorter stacks who will be faced w/a tough decision for most of their chips w/almost anything on the next couple of hands. better to be pushing than calling, right?

2. if he fold's here he's got 2.5 bb left which does nothing for him. a call here would not be terrible as the pot would be the size of his stack so that is out. if opponent is only calling with top 60% here 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J5o+,J2s+,T7o+,T5s+,98o,96s+,87s it still rates as a push in SNGPT. if he pushes he has lots of outs (most likely) and a full 5 card board to win. are we so sure that the BB is calling 70-100% of all pushes here?