Fossilman's Account Hacked?

[bluesbassman]

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That the WPT might (literally) be the only game in town is not relevant. They should have the right to conduct their business, for better or worse, in any honest manner they wish. The marquee players of course have the right to boycott or even set-up competing tournaments if they (perhaps correctly) conclude they are not getting good value from the WPT.

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That's one of the main points of the lawsuit, that options in setting up competing tournaments are limited due to agreements that the WPT has with casinos. The fact that the WPT might be the only game in town is therefore extremely relevant.

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It's not relevant because these agreements between the casinos and the WPT are completely voluntary. Players have no "right" to be provided with tournaments in which to play, if nobody wants to provide or host them, or even to provide them with (what they consider to be) favorable terms and structures.


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What if the WPT simply closed up shop? Would these players then "sue" to make them offer tournaments?


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Undoubtedly someone would take their place if it was profitable to do so. You're being ridiculous.

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What happens if nobody did? This is not unfeasible especially given prospect of getting sued by disgruntled players. By your argument, someone should then be forced to provide tournaments. I don't understand the arbitrary distinction between offering bad tournaments and offering no tournaments. Why should the latter be legal, but the former illegal?

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You act like this is breaking some new kind of antitrust ground. (I'm not a lawyer but it sure doesn't sound like it to me.) I don't really see how it would be bad for players if a court told organizations such as the WPT that they cannot prevent the casinos who host their tournaments from hosting other televised tournaments.

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This may not in fact be breaking antitrust ground, which is why I oppose such laws.

It's bad because nobody, including and especially the government, has any right to tell what agreements the casinos may freely make with the WPT and other organizations. Nor does anyone have the right to force the WPT to offer certain terms or tournament structures.

[Ace-Ex]

The government does have the right to tell an organization which has a monopoly what to do. That's the point of anti-trust laws--and we all benefit from them. Just because the recent trend has been to ignore such laws, it doesn't mean they aren't there and they shouldn't be enforced. We've come to a consensus in America that consolidation of power is a bad thing, particularly when it comes to dictating how people make their livlihood. The fact that WPT "invented" televised poker does not make them exempt from such a law.

Just to clarify, I don't think Raymer et al are suing due to the waiver form. They're suing because they don't like the waiver form (which WPT has every right to use), and there is no alternative circuit for them to play on. All of the other televised events are either really small events, or only open to a few pros. I'm sure the 7 will show that television publicity is as important to their livlihood as winning money at the tables.

The interesting implications here are what it could mean to other professional sporting events, or if it would even apply to them. The difference of course is that most other pro sports have unions.

And this argument about them being affiliated with online poker sites is not relevant to the case. All of the events under scrutiny are completely legal.

[pauly2x]

As far as video games go, they are all licensed through the MLBPA, NFLPA, etc., to use player names and likenesses, the same way the team names (White Sox, Red Sox, etc.) are licensed through MLB.

It's also why players that aren't MLBPA members aren't included in video games, such as Barry Bonds, or Kevin Millar (who was refused membership because he was a replacement player in 95).

The MLBPA is one of the fiercest and most powerful unions in the country. They squeeze out every dime for the players.

[PairTheBoard]

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Get ready for all hell to break loose over there, they do not take it well when someone questions DN. He is like an infalliable god to those people..
Good Luck, btw I agree with your stance completely

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Actually the real god at FCP is Tomfoolery. My post was buried amidst so much inane hijinks I doubt many even saw it. Fun Fun Fun is the order of the day over there. If you want serious discussion come to 2+2. If you feel like getting wild and crazy FCP is the place to go. I like it as a nice change of pace. I'm really a fan of most all the big name players but I find it especially fun rooting for Daniel.

PairTheBoard

[totalfocus1]

I personally think that Raymers manner on stars was unbelievable and disrespectful guy gets lky and wins the e and now hes pokers saviour ya not get a grip andd win something else bum lay off DN who is 1 of the best player supporters

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Pair:

I was just going from memory after listening to Negreanu's rant, and of course my ears perked up when he mentioned books. So I don't have to have it right.

Best wishes,
Mason

[SWelker]

Raymer regrets doing it he already said, get off his back about it.

[True North]

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I personally think that Raymers manner on stars was unbelievable and disrespectful guy gets lky and wins the e and now hes pokers saviour ya not get a grip andd win something else bum lay off DN who is 1 of the best player supporters

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Best first post ever.

[Stefanie]

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I'd like to mention two things. This is in reply to several different posts throughout the thread.

First, I was wrong to insult Daniel. Whatever my feelings, I should have kept the negative comments to myself. They don't help me or the cause we are fighting in this lawsuit, and they might have been hurtful to Daniel. For that I am sorry, and I do apologize.

Second, many people make the comment that if players don't like the WPT release, they can simply choose not to play. That is true. However, what if you wish to play in an open-to-the-public big-buyin televised tournament? Other than the WPT, where can you do this? The WSOP, of course; as well as the U.S. Poker Championships at the Taj. So, for a month and a half in Vegas you can play the WSOP, and then with the Circuit events and the Taj that's another half dozen events per year. What else?

I know of no other options within the U.S. Events like the NBC Heads-up Championship and Poker SuperStars Invitational don't count, because they are not open to the public.

So, if you have other events you think meet the above definition, let us know. I'm pretty sure there are none at the present.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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Well, this sounds like some of my home game buddies. Sometimes someone posts and open invitation on our forum for a home game, other times someone may have a home game where they just invite certain people. Inevitably, someone hears about the closed game and is pissed they weren't invited. Um, people can invite whoever they want.

I was a little surprised that Daniel expressed an opinion about this lawsuit on his blog but I did notice he only stated his opinion and did not call anyone names. I was a lot more surprised by Greg's public comments as they were calling someone names and were also very childish. They made him look like a complete amateur who is not used to handling a public image. Who says "tool" anyway? What are you, 12?

I'll tell you what, back when I used to play UB a lot I'd end up at tables with Phil Hellmuth or Annie Duke. I never cared much for Phil (being that I only know his public image) but I at least had to respect him on this....The railbirds say the stupidest, most immature things. Phil just calmly ignored them and answered the legitimate questions and comments. On the other hand, Annie would get into arguments with people and threaten to have them removed from UB. I just thought this made her look bad and I had no respect for her after that point. If you're a pro you should be able to ignore these comments. I mean, come on, I have to ignore them every day at a poker table and I'm not a pro. There was one other UB online "pro" who was berating a player and saying how dumb his play was that I even spoke up and told him I didn't think it was a good idea to be representing UB and speaking that way. Of course he just got mad and said he can have an opinion.

[pokertvstar]

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I personally think that Raymers manner on stars was unbelievable and disrespectful guy gets lky and wins the e and now hes pokers saviour ya not get a grip andd win something else bum lay off DN who is 1 of the best player supporters

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ummmm, let me say this.

He won the 2004 Main Event, and then got unbeleivably UNLUCKY against Kanter's donk play in 2005 to cripple him inside the top 27 players (I forget his finish).

Then he puts up another solid WSOP in 2006. Raymer ain't a fluke.

Raymer and DN have PUBLICLY exchanged apologies on this deal.

Move along (and learn how to spell).