chess or poker

[aggie]

Asking whether poker or chess requires more skill is similar to asking the same question about poker and baseball. Neither can be answered because they both require completely different skill sets.

[TylerD]

Someone tell me who samoleus played for damit.

[Niwa]

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Someone tell me who samoleus played for damit.

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[siegfriedandroy]

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Asking whether poker or chess requires more skill is similar to asking the same question about poker and baseball. Neither can be answered because they both require completely different skill sets.

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what is your evidence for this assertion?

[Megenoita]

From reading all of these posts, I think several errors in thinking are being (repeatedly) displayed:

*Poker is a game that involves elements of chance, therefore it must require less skill than chess, which has no element of chance. -This does not have to follow, and for many reasons. My first reason is that poker is not a "game of chance", but a game that involves chance. The game of poker is a game of skill. The better player makes better decisions, and theoretically (not results), he is superior every time he plays a weaker villain, whether he wins or loses that particular time. If you fast forward or fiat the "long run", the skilled player wins 100%; the better player wins always, just like in chess (whoever performs better). That's not a game of chance. The lottery is a game of chance. The short term element of chance in poker is throwing people off here. Secondly, it can be argued, and I agree, that chess does involve chance in some ways, due to the mental state and emotions of players, as well as possibly other elements. I've heard GMs state that there is luck in chess, just as much as in poker (could find the quote but don't feel like it).

*Chess is more complicated, therefore requires more skill. This is not necessarily true (that it is more complicated) at the highest levels, but even if it is, it doesn't mean that it therefore requires more skill. The psychological factors in poker are profound and wonderfully complex. The truly best players can wage an admirable war. Because it's a game of knowing the mind of another, it doesn't need near infinite complexity to match the game of chess. It requires the skill of knowing the mind of another, not knowing the possibilities that a board holds. The truth is, and I believe this can't be disputed, that poker can require more skill than chess. Whether it actually gets to that level, I don't know, and certainly it does not except for the very highest levels and best players. But it can.

I like Jennifer Harman. She has such great instincts. She just understands how people think. She doesn't know why to the point where she can articulate it well, and I don't even think she quantifies it to herself while she plays. She has said that she doesn't even know what amounts to bet most of the time, and she doesn't do much math in her head. Yet she can sit with anyone in the world in the best cash games and hold her own.

To counter that point, I would argue that pattern recognition alone reveals so much information that it's relatively easy to win against anyone in poker compared to beating Kasparov in chess.

Oh wow, homework time...

[Butso]

Interesting question.

Theory: When comparing strategic games it is normal to consider the outcome when the two players respond optimally to each others strategy.

In this case poker is 'harder', since chess has an EV of 0, and poker an EV of 0 minus rake for each player.

Real world: The question is essentially about comparing the quality of opponents at equivalent levels in the two games, i.e. the extent to which players strategies deviate from optimal choices. I think chess is the harder one in this case because of the reasons, IQ corr., etc, listed in this thread.

[KingNeo]

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Asking whether poker or chess requires more skill is similar to asking the same question about poker and baseball. Neither can be answered because they both require completely different skill sets.

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Firstly, let me just say that I do agree with this statement.

Secondly, if we are to compare the 2 games then I think the most important "skill" in poker is the psychological aspect. This includes both the mental aspect in playing against opponents and controlling your own emotions.

This emotional aspect of the game is probably the most difficult for people to master, much more difficult than doing simple artithmetic. Like Sam touched on, this is not really a major factor in chess.

I am prettty good at chess (probably because of my engineering background), but I have not studied it nor played it as much as I have with poker.

With this said, I don't really want to compare the two games as far as skill level is concenred because I think it is too difficult.