two hands from today's $1500 NLH at WSOP

[SmileyEH]

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Surely, if you believe you have the best hand, check/pushing is far superior to open-pushing. Also, you are overestimating what type of hands will be calling an open-push. IMO, a typical player is definitely folding a T here.

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Check-pushing assumes someone is likely to bet. You say a typical player will fold a T, but will also bet it. I think that is completely contradictory. I can't imagine a situation where I would fold this hand on the flop, and extracting value isn't really a concern - hand protection is.

-SmileyEH

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
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Surely, if you believe you have the best hand, check/pushing is far superior to open-pushing. Also, you are overestimating what type of hands will be calling an open-push. IMO, a typical player is definitely folding a T here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-pushing assumes someone is likely to bet. You say a typical player will fold a T, but will also bet it. I think that is completely contradictory. I can't imagine a situation where I would fold this hand on the flop, and extracting value isn't really a concern - hand protection is.

-SmileyEH

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How can you say that someone betting a T contradicts the fact that the same person would fold a T if bet into? It makes perfect sense.

Also, if you're open-pushing here, you only get called against a super-draw at best. There is not a single hand that is better than you that will fold and no hands that are worse than yours that will call. Induce a bluff if you're that tied to the hand.

I'm not saying that you should just blindly check/push. I'm saying its way preferable to open-pushing. I'm all for checking/evaluating.

edit: Also, you're so sure you're ahead, but you say hand-protection is essential. What exactly are you afraid of on the turn?

[nath]

OK quick results, I folded hand 2, but I was debating it still. I was pretty sure I never get a fold, which is really why I did it. If I had around 2000 I would make the move.

Hand 1 I actually did check. MP checked and button took only a few seconds before betting 600. NOW I push, right?

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OK quick results, I folded hand 2, but I was debating it still. I was pretty sure I never get a fold, which is really why I did it. If I had around 2000 I would make the move.

Hand 1 I actually did check. MP checked and button took only a few seconds before betting 600. NOW I push, right?

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No other choice, IMO. This is precisely what you wanted to happen. You must push here.

edit: And this

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I folded hand 2, but I was debating it still. I was pretty sure I never get a fold, which is really why I did it.

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Seems to contradict your earlier statement:

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Stupid donkey question: in hand 2, are you hoping that everyone folds or that you get called as a 2-1 dog with a heap of dead money in the pot?

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I'd take either one, frankly.

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[allenciox]

I like your reasoning processes on both hands. I would definitely push all-in after the button bets 600, unless I had a definite read of strength.

[nath]

while I would take either result in hand 2 I still think folding equity is a significant part of what would make the play +EV and I have none.

[betgo]

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while I would take either result in hand 2 I still think folding equity is a significant part of what would make the play +EV and I have none.

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You have 87o, the pot has been raised and you have no FE, so why are you considering pushing?

People are going nuts with this squeeze play business.

Also, you don't generally want to squeeze with typical restealing hands like 87o. If you get called, you generally get called bu JJ+, AQ+. You are best off trying this with Axs, since you are about 2-1 against any ace or pp except AA.

[SmileyEH]

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while I would take either result in hand 2 I still think folding equity is a significant part of what would make the play +EV and I have none.

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I think you have a tiny bit, but 87o doesn't seem good enough to me. 87s and ARREEEN BABY.

-SmileyEH

[betgo]

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OK quick results, I folded hand 2, but I was debating it still. I was pretty sure I never get a fold, which is really why I did it. If I had around 2000 I would make the move.

Hand 1 I actually did check. MP checked and button took only a few seconds before betting 600. NOW I push, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, you have to checkraise allin. As peopel have been saying players don't call raises with a king that much. A flat call with AK or KQs-KTs is possible. Real donks call with kings. I think you have to take that chance. At worst, you probably have 2 outs.

I would just open push the flop. It looks like an ace or pp that missed cbetting/semibluffing. So xT, JJ, and 99 are likely to call.

[SmileyEH]

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Also, if you're open-pushing here, you only get called against a super-draw at best.

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This is CRAZEEEEEE. Anyway, the whole hand analysis breaks down if we don't agree on that point. I think tons of worse hands will call. Remember this is CRAZY NATH playing too. Maybe if it was Nit McFolderson raising UTG the calling range is different but really, this is 15BB going into the pot - noway is 2nd or even 3rd pair folding.

-SmileyEH