Allin every time right?

[Slap My Jack]

The only question about this hand is, why didn't you push before he flopped a set of kings PREFLOP when he put half his stack behind a rereraise?

[BalugaWhale]

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Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong. It is pf. We have AA. If we pushed pf and 12 people called us, it would be great. If I am pushing this pf, it is only because I think both people will call me (or that both will fold light on the flop).

[notevenhere]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any FE you have vs the button pre-flop is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong. It is pf. We have AA. If we pushed pf and 12 people called us, it would be great. If I am pushing this pf, it is only because I think both people will call me (or that both will fold light on the flop).

[/ QUOTE ]


This is 100% silliness. I know you are only exaggerating when you say 12 PF callers is good when you have AA. But exaggerations do help us reach the crux of the issue. I can EASILY construct a set of 13 hands in which your AA is a big dog if all 12 opponents call your all-in pre-flop. I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.


More opponents does not always equal good. This notion needs to be dismissed immediately.

Now, in this particular hand, we are debating the merits of 2 opponents vs 1. Personally, I never want more than 2 opponents seeing the flop with my pocket Aces. Sometimes I want it heads up, sometimes I want it vs 2. Three people seeing the flop vs my pocket Aces reduces my winning % to about 64% vs any 3 random hands.

In regards to Hero's hand, I prefer heads up to playing this 3 way. The pot is already big. If I have zero FE vs button, then all-in is the best move, since I want all money in the pot NOW, while my hand is best. If I have some amount of FE, that is great. I can narrow the field, which increases my odds of winning by quite a few percentage points.

Since Hero is going to felt with this 100% of the time, all we are doing when calling, is giving other players the implied odds to hit a set.

What is more important in this hand?

A) An increased % of winning an already big pot?
B) Or juicing an already big pot by decreasing your odds of winning? (And also giving opponents correct implied odds to hit a set)

[BalugaWhale]

[ QUOTE ]
I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, do it.

notevenhere,

You are right in saying that if AA and 12 other hands went to the felt pf, we would be a dog. We would also be a hugely +EV dog. Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money.

Also, if we call instead of push here, we are definitely not giving villains odds to hit a set.

[terp]

lol at there being a thread about calling flop once 1/2 our stack is in preflop and people discussing fold equity when we hold the nuts.

[younghov17]

push all in preflop, pot is already almost 20 preflop, yoru concern is winning whats in there and protecting your hand, not trying to extract more. pot is too big to risk being outdrawn by the likely kk/qq/jj yoru up against. they are both likely calling your all in anyway

[notevenhere]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, do it.

notevenhere,

You are right in saying that if AA and 12 other hands went to the felt pf, we would be a dog. We would also be a hugely +EV dog. Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money.

Also, if we call instead of push here, we are definitely not giving villains odds to hit a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button is getting correct implied odds to hit his set.

There is $26.15 in the pot before button calls. Hero has $14.50 to go. Add that up, and we have $40.65. Add that to the $14.60 from UTG+1, and we have $55.25. Better than 10-1 implied odds to call.


You speak as if winning money and pots have no correlation at all.

Button being in the hand decreases our chances of winning every time. This is plain indisputable fact. Button being in the hand also increases the size of the pot. So in order to want the button in this pot, the increased amount of money he puts in must justify the decrease in Hero's chances to win.

If your argument is that the decrease in winning % is offset by the extra money put into the pot by button, this is a valid argument. I would not happen to agree, but I can see the merits. However, making a flippant statement like:

"Stop worrying about winning pots and start worrying about winning money."

is just ignoring the issue altogether, which is not in any way instructive.

Pokerstove puts AA vs any random hand at ~85% chance to win. It puts AA vs any 2 random hands at ~70% chance to win. Now I know we are not up against random hands here. We're up against some fairly defined hands. Say, for instance, we are up against KK and QQ. Against a single one of those hands, we are 82% to win. Playing vs both, we are 67% to win. Same 15% difference. Obviously, the news is much better if we are up against at least one AK. But for sake or argument, allow for the 15% to be used here.

By pushing the button away, you gain an extra 15% equity. To put it another way, the number of times you lose this hand is reduced by HALF.

Now, I personally doubt that an all-in pre-flop by the Hero in this situation pushes either player out. By the looks of the hand, all 3 are going to the felt.

To say that forcing the button to fold is a bad idea in absolute terms, that is simply incorrect. Our FE in this situation vs button, however tiny it is, is EV+ imo.

But say you don't believe that argument. Why is calling better? Doesn't calling give Button-Villain who is holding KK a reason to bail when an A falls on the flop? Doesn't a King calling make his hand? Why do you want to make any kind of post flop decision in this hand?

[BalugaWhale]

I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

[notevenhere]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going all-in postflop regardless. While letting KK get scared by an A may happen, we also may let KJ catch a K and stack off while he might've folded pf had we pushed. Either option is fine IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're willing to put either of the 2 opponents on something as horrible as KJ? If they are truly stupid enough to follow KJ this far, why would you ever think they wouldn't put it all-in pre-flop?

KJ is simply not a likely holding.

Either option is fine? Sure. I simply prefer the one that is better among the two that are fine.

[ QUOTE ]
However, you fail to see that the added money from having the 3rd person go all-in pf more than makes up for our loss in equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you actually reading my posts? How is it that I have failed to see this? I specifically address this issue directly, which is something you have never done up until now.

[ QUOTE ]
We have the nuts pf, why wouldn't we want as many people as we can to go all-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

You want as many people to go all-in as possible when you have the nuts. 100% AGREED. And you have the nuts PRE-FLOP. So get all the damn money in pre-flop right? Yet your advice is to smooth call PF, then push on the flop. Are you contending HERO has the nuts post-flop?



All-in pre-flop accomplishes 2 things:

1) Gets in all your money with the best hand.
2) Takes advantage of our FE (however tiny a % it may be), in order to increase our chances of winning an already huge pot. If there in fact we had 0% FE, then we increased the size of the pot and maintained our equity, which is always good when our equity is this high.


Calling pre-flop accomplishes:

1) Allowing button implied odds for set
2) Pushing flop when we may no longer have the best hand
3) Giving a hand like KK a chance to get away from hand when A falls, and a chance to correctly call when K falls. Apply this to any lower PP hitting a set as well.
4) Increasing the size of pot at the expense of out winning %.


You better believe that reason #4 trumps reasons #1-3 by a ton to call instead of push PF.

[ QUOTE ]
push all in preflop, pot is already almost 20 preflop, yoru concern is winning whats in there and protecting your hand, not trying to extract more. pot is too big to risk being outdrawn by the likely kk/qq/jj yoru up against. they are both likely calling your all in anyway

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100% agree with this.

[Dopey]

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I can probably construct a set of hands that results in your AA drawing DEAD vs 12 opponents.

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LOL, do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was bored but I think he is right. Any fewer opponents and youve atleast got outs to chop.(I may be wrong as I dont have an odds calculator that will work with 10+ hands):

Hero has Ac As

vs.

AhAd
JcJs
TcTs
ThTd
5c5s
5h5d
2c2s
3c4c
KcQs
9s8s
7c6c
7s6s

So if you ever find yourself playing 13 handed and you get all-in preflop and your opponents turn over all these hands, your drawing dead. Just getup and leave, dont wait to see the board because it will not matter (Actually if your in a 13 handed game and everyone gets allin with these hands..... Stay because that should be a damn good game)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]