limpers & button

[Shillx]

Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero folds/raises

You could make second-best here a lot of times. If you're going to play, you'd have to raise. Fold might be the best play -- depending on your reads. Calling makes Baby Jesus cry.

Well I was going to goto bed until I read this.... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

I sometimes like these types of posts more then HH posts since they can show fundimental flaws in ones thinking. You tell someone to raise J9s after 4 limpers and he will do it all day long. But give him T8s or JTs or QTs and he has no idea what to do because he doesn't understand the underlying concepts behind the play.

Anytime you are on the button and have 4 limpers in front of you it is never a raise or fold scenario. There are essentially 4 times when you should raise or fold preflop:

1) You are opening the pot beyond the 1st few positions.

2) You are looking to isolate a bad player (or players) with a weak hand.

3) You are in the SB and are facing an open raise with no coldcallers in the middle.

4) Someone else has raised and it comes to you with no coldcallers.

Why is this not raise or fold?

Anything we do in this spot is for value. If a raise has value, we should probably take it. If a raise doesn't have value, we have to decide if a limp has value (remember a fold is 0 EV). So if ATo has enough value to raise X% of the time (where X is significant), that same hand should never be folded under similar conditions. If you are in a spot where you would sometimes raise (and not raise as a bluff or semibluff) you should call with it those times that you don't raise. The raise doesn't do anything else for us besides build a pot in this case. A raise isn't going to change the dyanmic of the hand in terms of how many people will be taking a flop (or what players will be taking it). If we still had people left behind us it might be a different issue (or if some of the limpers would fold for one more bet), but both calling and raising will produce the same result (other then the pot being 2x as big). So if you feel like your ATo has enough equity to raise 50% of the time, it clearly has enough to call the other 50%. Notice how just calling doesn't put you in a bad spot postflop as compared to raising. If you are outkicked in a limped pot, you are going to be outkicked in a raised pot. That is just poker.

Notice how this is much different then say

UTG limps, UTG+2 limps, Hero has ATo and...?

Now you can make a much better case for a raise/fold.

Brad

[Kwaz]

Raise.
Raise.
Call.
Raise.

[TomBrooks]

I usually limp 1 and raise 2, 3 and 4. I might switch it up now and then though.

[piiop]

1 - Call/raise.
2 - Easy raise.
3 - Call. I think raising with this is pretty bad.
4 - Easy raise.

[@bsolute_luck]

1,2,4: Raise

3: calling>folding>>>>>>>rais ing.

[mugged_off]

*n00b question*

OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity and position.

We DO want as many people as possible in the pot with these hands and we already have them in there. When you raise, it's not to fold anyone, but to get them to put more bets in. With those hands, your equity is clearly high enough that raising has a significant amount of value. We're not trying to force the blinds to fold.

Having position is also a huge benefit. We'll always be able to see the action as it develops. We'll frequently get to take free cards if we need them. The flop is almost always "check to the preflop raiser". We'll be able to take free showdowns if we need to.

[mugged_off]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity and position.

We DO want as many people as possible in the pot with these hands and we already have them in there. When you raise, it's not to fold anyone, but to get them to put more bets in. With those hands, your equity is clearly high enough that raising has a significant amount of value. We're not trying to force the blinds to fold.

Having position is also a huge benefit. We'll always be able to see the action as it develops. We'll frequently get to take free cards if we need them. The flop is almost always "check to the preflop raiser". We'll be able to take free showdowns if we need to.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I think I get it.

We are getting very good odds on our investment here, therefore we want to maximise our investment ?

With the added bonus of gaining control and possible free card.

Thanks for explaining.

[Absolution]

I think 3 is probably the one I would be least happy raising with. The 77 is also thin. Honestly, in these situations it probably doesn't make a huge difference. They all seem very marginal to me. As always, it's really going to matter how well you play after the flop. If these hands will get you into trouble after the flop (like me) you might want to call instead.

[piiop]

Raisig 77 and other mid/low pairs has been discussed at length in small stakes in the past. I'm sure a lot of good stuff can be found with the search. I think the reasoning comes down to: you have a slight equity edge, when don't flop a set and there's other action you can easily fold, you can check thru and have another shot at hitting a lot of the time, and when you do hit a set you will be paid off big (partially because it will be unexpected and partially because there will frequently be overcards that your opponents pair and pay you off with).