SSNL Common Spots #1

[FeNeF]

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Why are you guys raising AJo? Seems like a big time spew to me.

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AJo is a limped pot is most likely the best hand. Raise it for value. It's easy to get away from post flop.

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My thinking had been, "Well, I've got a marginal hand OOP that probably won't want a big pot. I'll limp and see what happens as well as keeping the pot small."

Is this completely out of line?

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No. Limping here is perfectly reasonable.

BTW your avatar is awesome.

[Jouster777]

Do others agree with this generalization: "An OOP PFR reduces villain's positional advantage"?

[wallywojo]

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Do others agree with this generalization: "An OOP PFR reduces villain's positional advantage"?

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Well the only way this can be true is if you get it all in preflop. I think the point is that regardless of position, the one who takes the initiative in the hand has the best chance to take it down, whether that be a preflop raise or a raise or lead of a bet post-flop.

Why do you think so many preflop raises and CBets take down pots? Taking the lead makes it possible.

[Jouster777]

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Well the only way this can be true is if you get it all in preflop.

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Not the only way...but I think its related to that. You are much more likely to get it all in if stacks are short. If you raise preflop then your stack to pot ratio is reduced and you are more likely to get it all in sooner.

The shorter the stack the greater the effect but there should be some effect with anything less than infinite stacks.

I think this is a point made in NLTP but I need to look it up. It goes against the maxim "avoid playing big pots when OOP" and I haven't thought about it enough to reconcile these concepts. I'll try to look it up and give it more thought...hopefully someone will pop in here and make it easier for me.

[NewUser2006]

Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

[Jouster777]

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Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

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I see your point and agree its a weak effect with 100+BB stacks.

However, going back to the hand in question, I think I am well ahead of both villains' ranges here. I expect the raise will either fold out both players or I'll be HU vs. a TAG (BTN) with a drawing hand. Now the PFR significantly reduces BTN's implied odds if we both get a piece of the flop.

This is more of a routine negative implied odds effect but I think the OOP PFR adds something.

[bilbo-san]

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Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

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I see your point and agree its a weak effect with 100+BB stacks.

However, going back to the hand in question, I think I am well ahead of both villains' ranges here. I expect the raise will either fold out both players or I'll be HU vs. a TAG (BTN) with a drawing hand. Now the PFR significantly reduces BTN's implied odds if we both get a piece of the flop.

This is more of a routine negative implied odds effect but I think the OOP PFR adds something.

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It's player dependant, for sure. But if you think that merely having the button gives that player mad magic poker skillz than that's crazy thinking.

Most flops miss most players. The Button is unlikely to have a pocket pair. Therefore, raising and C-betting will take this down a ton. Way more than enough times to be profitable.

No one said you have to invest 100 BBs if the button wakes up post flop.

And your earlier comment regarding implied odds makes no sense. The tighter you are raising out of the blinds, the better the implied odds you offer villains. If you won't raise AJ in a limped pot, than your range is pretty narrow.

[wallywojo]

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Well the only way this can be true is if you get it all in preflop.

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Not the only way...but I think its related to that.

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If you do not get it all in preflop; then you have to make a decision about what to do before anyone else in this hand. That makes you out of position.

[FeNeF]

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If you do not get it all in preflop; then you have to make a decision about what to do before anyone else in this hand. That makes you out of position.

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He's saying the disadvantage of being OOP is lessened, not negated.

[DeathbySuckout]

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Why are you guys raising AJo? Seems like a big time spew to me.

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AJo is a limped pot is most likely the best hand. Raise it for value. It's easy to get away from post flop.

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My thinking had been, "Well, I've got a marginal hand OOP that probably won't want a big pot. I'll limp and see what happens as well as keeping the pot small."

Is this completely out of line?

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No. Limping here is perfectly reasonable.

BTW your avatar is awesome.

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I raise AJo here because I am playing this for high card value, and looking to hit top pair or cbet if i don't. I don't want a bunch of people in the hand, as top pair goes down in value w/ more players. And if I'm cbeting, I want the least amount of people possible.

Am I way off here?