Is Limit Hold 'em Dead?

[Isura]

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Seems to be a ton of great limit players just don't post anymore or very rarely. It's sort of a shame but I totally understand it too. It is possible to outgrow these forums and I think a lot of people have a close network of fellow high stakes players they talk about stuff with in person or on AIM or whatever. Also the 2k NL players on Party that post in HSNL definitely seem more vocal than the 100/200 limit players who lurk in these forums. Not sure why that is.

-DeathDonkey

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10/20 NL is not neary as big as 100/200. You still don't see much discussion about 25/50 and bigger online NL games on 2+2.

[Josh.]

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10/20 NL is not neary as big as 100/200.

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then why do they require similar bankrolls? i think diablo nailed it. good limit hold'em is just not that interesting most of the time. once you get to the point where you can play good limit hold'em there's no need to discuss 99.99% of situations

[Isura]

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10/20 NL is not neary as big as 100/200.

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then why do they require similar bankrolls?

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500bb = 50 buyins. I don't think that winning 10/20 players have 50 buyin swings. Bankroll in NL seems to be a lot more about personal comfort level than necessity

[ggbman]

I have played a good amount of both of these games. 100-200 limit plays considerably bigger. However, a few caveats here: Most 100-200 have rolls much bigger than 100k. People might take shots with 500 BB's, but in games with that much variance, i think 150k is the absolute minimum you need to consider it your main game. Tongi lost more than that and then won it back in the same month... 100k is not enough.

Also, i do think you need about 100k for a comfortable 10-20 roll, that game plays extremely aggressivly, and it's been shown over and over that big winners (Samo, HEK, etc...) Have had 30-40 buy in downswings, so 20 buy in ones won't be super rare, and 60k would not be adequate, especially given how most people will be playing after a 20 buy in downswing.

If you want a comparison, i would say 100-200 limit plays right in between 10-20 and 25-50 NL. Also, to answer Nate's orinigal question, i don't think LHE is anywhere near dead. The fact is, the best NL players tend to make more money, the top HSNL guys will have the highest hourlies, but there are more people making $350+/hr at LHE than NL, and that makes them more content and less apt to post.

[thedustbustr]

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10/20 NL is not neary as big as 100/200. You still don't see much discussion about 25/50 and bigger online NL games on 2+2.

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I think 10/20 is slightly bigger than 100/200. 5/10nl is roughly 30/60 or 40/80, using rough analogies like winrate and bankroll.

I don't think there is much discussion about 5knl+ because party doesn't spread it.

FWIW, I've been thinking about learning limit, if only to eventually play nosebleed stakes live. Also, limit seems "funner" - more information, play 3 streets every time, etc. NL tends to go ch ca, ch ca, bet ca; or bet, raise, allin - booooring.

also, nl won't be popular forever, the fish are dying [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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I think 10/20 is slightly bigger than 100/200. 5/10nl is roughly 30/60 or 40/80, using rough analogies like winrate and bankroll.

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The average pot in a 10/20 NL game is on the order of $300. The average pot in a 100/200 limit game is on the order of $1000. A typical bankroll for 100/200 limit would be 500 big bets, or $100,000. A typical bankroll for 10/20 NL would be about 25 buy-ins, or $50,000. So how is 10/20 NL the bigger game?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think 10/20 pots are more like 400-600 depending how good the game is. And a suitable BR is closer to 100K than 50K. But who really cares? The games are probably pretty comparable in size but 10/20 is probably a bit smaller. The dynamics of the games and players is probably pretty similar, though, which is what's important for this discussion.

[Number27]

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The average pot in a 10/20 NL game is on the order of $300. The average pot in a 100/200 limit game is on the order of $1000. A typical bankroll for 100/200 limit would be 500 big bets, or $100,000. A typical bankroll for 10/20 NL would be about 25 buy-ins, or $50,000. So how is 10/20 NL the bigger game?

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Everything I've seen suggests that $50,000 is way too small of a BR for 10/20 NL. At least on party the game plays such that 10 buy-in downswings are pretty normal. I think most 10/20NL pros have at least a $100,000 BR and at least some decent percentage have $200,000+.

[Fabian]

I doubt the 100/200 regulars' bankrolls are generally only 100k too though. I don't really see 10/20 being the bigger game either, though of course it doesn't matter much.