A couple live hands from Bellagio

[tl65\]

First, I'm primarily a Limit player, decided to give NL a shot while in vegas. Both hands are from the 2/5 game at Bellagio.

First hand:

I was in my first or second orbit and dont really know how the button plays yet. All I know at this point is that he's probably about 24 and looks like he's scandinavian for what that's worth.... We both have a little over the $500 buyin.

I raise to 20 from EP with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], button calls, BB calls.

Flop AT8 (two clubs)

I bet 40, button raises to 140, I call (Is this a mistake)

Turn, T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], (putting a second flush draw on board)

I check, he bets 200, since i dont know how to play NL, I push in for about 140 more...


Second hand:

A little later into the session:

BB has about 1900 chips and I really havent seen anything unusual from him
MP has almost 400 and constantly overbets the pot, kinda passive overall though and doesnt like to call big bets
I'm in SB with about 3500 (I think i'm going to play NL more often)

Someone in EP raised to 20, everyone calls, I see the flop with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

8 to the flop for 20

Flop: T2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets 75, MP calls, I call.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet 400, BB thought about it for about 5 minutes then called, MP calls all in for about 250,

River blank

I bet 400 again into the huge pot....


What do you guys think?

[Black winter day]

Hand 1 - i probably fold the flop without strong reads that this player is a donkey since i hate playing for my stack with TP second kicker.

Hand 2- seems ok, but with 8 people to the flop in unraised pot i'd play 68s for straights, not for flushes.You can lose a lot of money in flush over flush scenario and with so many players seeing the flops it's very likely.
And i'd check-call the river, unless you can fold to a reraise.Looks like BB either has a set or a bigger flush.
You have to be able to fold in case 2.

[Big_Jim]

Hand 1: With no reads, I'd usually just fold the flop.

If I had a read that my hand was likely good, I'd play it like you did.

Hand 2: Okay, so pot on river is $1400, and he's got about that much left?

If he has a flush, he's a hell of an actor. I don't think I have ever seen somebody think for that long with the made flush. I think you can bet a little more, maybe $600 or so, and still get called by his two pair or set. Call a push.

Check/call on the river here is horrible.

[Black winter day]

Jim - you don't think hero could be up vs a made flush here against so many people in the hand?
If he bets, he is commited to call a raise as well.

[xwillience]

I dont understand why you guys are so quick to throw away hand 1 on the flop? Thats a PSR that seems like it could just was easily be a FD or a CB raise.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim - you don't think hero could be up vs a made flush here against so many people in the hand?
If he bets, he is commited to call a raise as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
If hero is up against a flush, it's with the all in player.

In my experience, nobody thinks for that long with a made flush.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand why you guys are so quick to throw away hand 1 on the flop? Thats a PSR that seems like it could just was easily be a FD or a CB raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good luck getting to showdown without putting your whole stack in the middle.

WIth no read, I would assume I'm beat here, the vast majority of the time.

Also note that we have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which is a key card for combo draws.

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand why you guys are so quick to throw away hand 1 on the flop? Thats a PSR that seems like it could just was easily be a FD or a CB raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good luck getting to showdown without putting your whole stack in the middle.

WIth no read, I would assume I'm beat here, the vast majority of the time.

Also note that we have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which is a key card for combo draws.

[/ QUOTE ]


do you think that this is one of those times where its okay to maybe fold the best hand because your either going to lose a lot or win a little?

[Black winter day]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jim - you don't think hero could be up vs a made flush here against so many people in the hand?
If he bets, he is commited to call a raise as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
If hero is up against a flush, it's with the all in player.

In my experience, nobody thinks for that long with a made flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's assume the same pot online.
Check-call is better now?
I actually went over the OP and also came to conclusion that the all-in villain is more likely to have a flush so now we should at least get as much as we can out of side pot.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jim - you don't think hero could be up vs a made flush here against so many people in the hand?
If he bets, he is commited to call a raise as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
If hero is up against a flush, it's with the all in player.

In my experience, nobody thinks for that long with a made flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's assume the same pot online.
Check-call is better now?
I actually went over the OP and also came to conclusion that the all-in villain is more likely to have a flush so now we should at least get as much as we can out of side pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Check/call sucks period.

Bet/fold or bet/call are the only way to play this hand, as I see it.

Nothing that beats us checks behind, almost everything that we beat does.