why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL

[amoeba]

its all about balance. raising marginal hands also produce a lot of situations where you lose a big pot that would not have happened had you limped especially since many on this board do not "let go of a hand easily" postflop. We can bring up your 77 hand against TWP for example had you not hit the 7 on the river or if TWP decided to bet/3bet the turn.

or if we use your example with QQ, had villain had AA/KK/Set, you would have been stacked whereas if you had a tighter image, perhaps it wouldn't have happened.

The important thing is balance. increased aggression with a wider array of hands widen our own range as well as the range of our opponent if they are able to adjust. at the end of the day, you still have to win more than you lose. you might win 10 pots out of 15 whereas a tighter player wins 6 small pots out of 8.

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
its all about balance. raising marginal hands also produce a lot of situations where you lose a big pot that would not have happened had you limped especially since many on this board do not "let go of a hand easily" postflop. We can bring up your 77 hand against TWP for example had you not hit the 7 on the river or if TWP decided to bet/3bet the turn.

or if we use your example with QQ, had villain had AA/KK/Set, you would have been stacked whereas if you had a tighter image, perhaps it wouldn't have happened.

The important thing is balance. increased aggression with a wider array of hands widen our own range as well as the range of our opponent if they are able to adjust. at the end of the day, you still have to win more than you lose. you might win 10 pots out of 15 whereas a tighter player wins 6 small pots out of 8.

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very valid points, and i didn't mean to steer this into a TAG vs LAG discussion - only to shed light on why raising, whether youre tight or loose, is much more preferrable to limping.

[iceman5]

"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

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You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

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I think we can come up with examples ad nauseum. I don't think 1 way is better than the other.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise. Stacked"

You limp a hand liks A4s, flop a flush and stack the BB who had K5s. He wouldve folded K5s to a raise. It goes both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limp a hand like A4s, flop A24, and stack off to 35o. It works that way, too.

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I realize that, Im just saying your flopped flush example wasnt a very good one.

You could limp 44 and stack 96 on a 964 flop where he wouldve fold to a raise.. We could do this all day.

[AJFenix]

The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.

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I agree with you and I agree with most of his other points. I was just saying that his flush over flush example was a poor argument for raising being better than limping.

[arkons]

what about the problem with raising say 55 from middle position and getting 4 but by the button, whereas if you had limped 55 u could see the flop to a normal 4x bb raise.

[amoeba]

I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).