GOSH-DARN MINRAISERS

[yvesaint]

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Big Jim:

I have actually bothered to think about this exact scenario and have taken a poll from 2+2-ers on the subject. I stated that most respondents think the min-raise means the nuts. I doubt this majority view is "completely incorrect", although it is certainly not impossible that you are miles ahead of the average poster.

If this is the case I'm not surprised you keep your valuable insight to yourself. I on the other hand have made my views clear in this situation; top choice - fold (as suggested by by poll results), next (by a long way) raise.

If you merely call you have delayed the exact same difficult decision to the turn, whilst potentially paying off better hands in the process. His small bet might mean the nuts, his large bet could mean the nuts, a non-bet could be a slow-play. Perhaps though you hit one of your 5 outs. Would you usually call a large bet with 5 outs? If you do is your 2-pair good or does he now have the full-house? Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do.

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1. your poll is pretty much useless. sample size, lack of a random sampling, not to mention voting could include players of limits from 25 NL to 2k NL.

2. this is not a "fold or raise situation". call is far better than both options imo. you obviously dont see why.

3. you have position.

4. if you raise the flop, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

5. if you call the flop, and he bets 1/2 pot to pot on the turn, and you raise him all in, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

6. if you raise flop, do you think he continues with a bluff?

7. if you call flop, do you think theres a chance he bluffs again on the turn?

seriously slartibartfast. this stuff should be obvious.

[yvesaint]

"Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do. "

what does this mean? are you saying just because we dont play poker as a job, we are losing players? or something like that? i dont get it. i play and i am a winning player. and i say call this flop. other winning players say call this flop.

edit: and even if they DONT, they DEFINITELY dont say its only a "raise or fold" decision.

this is FAR from a raise or fold decision.

[slartibartfast]

1. your poll is pretty much useless. sample size, lack of a random sampling, not to mention voting could include players of limits from 25 NL to 2k NL.

- I haven't submitted the poll to serious academic review, merely looked for the opinions of a few mid-stakes players (other than myself) you fool.

2. this is not a "fold or raise situation". call is far better than both options imo. you obviously dont see why.

- Explain why being a calling station is excellent strategy, earn 5 gold stars.

3. you have position.

- 10 bonus points.

4. if you raise the flop, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

- If you don't raise, has he got a draw, 2-pair or trips?

5. if you call the flop, and he bets 1/2 pot to pot on the turn, and you raise him all in, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

- If you raise him all-in, and he calls with trips would you feel like an idiot?

6. if you raise flop, do you think he continues with a bluff?

- If he's bluff raising you but has a draw, could he out-draw your one pair?

7. if you call flop, do you think theres a chance he bluffs again on the turn?

- If you're bluffing, do you fire once then quit? Are you totally inept?

seriously yvesaint. this stuff should be obvious.

[jsnipes28]

Call, AI on turn like couple others said. If you play relatively aggressive people will try and fck with u with much worse hands as well as air and obviously sets/two pair.

On another note:
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Over 80% of online players are losers, I wonder what percentage of 2+2-ers pay their mortgage from the game like I do.


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You must suck if you had to get a mortgage on your house. Me and most other 2p2ers paid straight cash homie for our dorm rooms. If you wanna PM though i can probably arrange for a cookie to be sent recognizing your achievement.

[knifeyspoony]

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You must suck if you had to get a mortgage on your house. Me and most other 2p2ers paid straight cash homie for our dorm rooms. If you wanna PM though i can probably arrange for a cookie to be sent recognizing your achievement.

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I won my house when my straight/flush draw hit. 47% chance I'd have ended up homeless.

[slartibartfast]

Big Jim,

Take a look at Phil Gordon's website, he's a bigger poker badass than all of us put together. He's done research at the mid stakes level to find out what the min-raise means, and for sure my poll is extremely limited but it converges in it's small degree on what he also found ("I am a doofus" hardly counts).

The large bet I mentioned was in terms of the pot, not in absolute terms. In my experience although again limited by sample size, min-raises tend to mean the nuts. If you're beat, find out sooner rather than later and move on to the next hand.

[Big_Jim]

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1. your poll is pretty much useless. sample size, lack of a random sampling, not to mention voting could include players of limits from 25 NL to 2k NL.

- I haven't submitted the poll to serious academic review, merely looked for the opinions of a few mid-stakes players (other than myself) you fool.

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That's good, because that poll is essentially worthless.

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2. this is not a "fold or raise situation". call is far better than both options imo. you obviously dont see why.

- Explain why being a calling station is excellent strategy, earn 5 gold stars.

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Explain how calling a bet makes you a "calling station" earn 20 sklanskybucks.

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3. you have position.

- 10 bonus points.

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Not understanding the implications of this -20 sklanskybucks

Inconsistancy between using "points" and "gold stars" - 5 skalnskybucks

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4. if you raise the flop, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

- If you don't raise, has he got a draw, 2-pair or trips?

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Who knows? But at least we have a good chance to have the best hand.

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5. if you call the flop, and he bets 1/2 pot to pot on the turn, and you raise him all in, do you think he continues with a weaker K?

- If you raise him all-in, and he calls with trips would you feel like an idiot?

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No. But he sure will, when he calls with K9

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6. if you raise flop, do you think he continues with a bluff?

- If he's bluff raising you but has a draw, could he out-draw your one pair?

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Sure, but he might keep donating, even if he misses.

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7. if you call flop, do you think theres a chance he bluffs again on the turn?

- If you're bluffing, do you fire once then quit?

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Uh... not usually. And that's kind of the point of calling.

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Are you totally inept?

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WTF, this was out of line for no good reason.


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seriously yvesaint. this stuff should be obvious.

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What stuff? You didn't say ANYTHING in this post.

[slartibartfast]

I don't see why I should have to explain the information I set forth clearly in my previous post to someone who has been using the forum long enough to make 5732 posts, but if it's possible to explain anything to you Jim I'll try my best.

The poll may not be valuable in the field of strict scientific research, (I know since this was my field pre-poker) however it holds more weight than just one individual's opinion, can you understand why?

So you have position on someone who raised you on the flop. Does a non-bet on the turn now represent strength or weakness? Answers on a postcard please.

If his calling your flop reraise 'for sure doesn't mean a weaker king' you have a clear course of action, one that merely calling doesn't give. However, if he doesn't call with a weaker king then why would he call an all-in with K9 as you suggest?

As far as the 'inept' comment I was referring to someone who can only fire one barrel of a bluff, not the poster who I was quoting.

[wyoak]

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If his calling your flop reraise 'for sure doesn't mean a weaker king' you have a clear course of action, one that merely calling doesn't give. However, if he doesn't call with a weaker king then why would he call an all-in with K9 as you suggest?


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You call, he fires again on turn, you push, he calls since pot is bigger/his stack is smaller.

What amount are you raising that gives you any folding equity but allows you to get away from the hand?

edit: also, for some purely anecdotal evidence, in my (admittedly limited) experience flop minraises are less often the nuts than turn or river minraises.

[mason55]

ok. here's the thing. because of stack sizes you're going broke if you're beat. so you want to take the course of action that allows worse hands to pay you off. the way to do this is call flop and turn.

that's about as simple as it gets.