Why aren't setup men paid better?

[EvilSmurf]

It seems to me often pitchers who throw 1 or 2 different pitches, but throw them really, really, well who become closers/relievers. Does the evidence point to that?

[tdarko]

ES,

The evidence leads to the guys that can throw only two pitches exceptionally well tend to have a hard time as starters, of course, like in anything there is exceptions but starters need to have three pitches. A starter could get by for 3-4 innings with 2 dominating pitches but the problem is that he is going to box himself in a corner without a 3rd pitch the more times he gets through the lineup. Relievers can get by with two pitches b/c they are seeing batters once, but of course there are relievers/closers with 3 plus pitches as well.

As a hitter its hard to center a guy like Lidge with an explosive fastball and great slider if you only get one at-bat, but if you get 4, Lidge is going to have to learn a Change/Split, instead of throwing everything hard, when everything is coming at you hard and the difference in speed isn't at 3 levels sometimes this can be a bad thing for pitchers. For instance, if a pitcher throws a fastball at a range of 95-97 and a slider at 87-88, the difference in speed isn't that great but the pitches may be dominant at first. Once the hitters get the timing, say the 4th inning, is when a change up around 79-81 would completely muck them up. Starters usually need 3 different levels of velocity. May not be a good example b/c I am not sure if he has more than 2 pitches, he may have a chang-up?

[mblax10]

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If anyone is interested in this, there is a very thorough chapter in The Book about how best to leverage your relievers in order to get the most wins, not saves.

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There's also a very good chapter in "Basbeall Betwenn the Numbers" regarding how to most effectivley use your closer. It discusses leverage too. Basically if the situations (run differential/bases occupied/outs) are the same, an out later in the game is more valuable because it increases your chances of victory much more.

[Jack of Arcades]

Lidge throws just the slider and the fastball. Still, his slider's pretty unhittible (unless your Albert Pujols).

Mo is another 2 pitch guy (Cutter) and BJ Ryan (Slider). When Smoltz was a closer he mostly used his splitter and fastball.

[ChuckyB]

"Why aren't setup men paid better?"

It's kind of like asking why utility men aren't paid better...after all, they can play four positions.

If a setup man has the cajones to become a closer, they will get paid better.

Closers put out fires. That's what they're there for. However too many managers are so bean-headed that they allow the save statistic to dictate how they use their pitchers. "Let's see, we're up 3 in the 9th, there's a man on first and two out...better get Hoffman in there."

If more managers were willing to defy convention and use their "closer" at the pivotal point in the game (perhaps they're in real danger in the 7th) we'd understand why closers are paid more.

[Jack of Arcades]

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If a setup man has the cajones to become a closer, they will get paid better.

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It's not a matter of "cajones," it's a matter of opportunity. Many players have gone from setup men to closer, or starter to closer without a hitch.

[Wynton]

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Closers put out fires.

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But this is my main point: closers today hardly ever put out fires. Rather, it is more often the setup guys who put out the fires. And I think that the guy who comes into the 7th or 8th inning with one out and a man in scoring position is doing something more valuable than the guy who just happens to pitch the ninth without anyone on base.

[ChuckyB]

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Closers put out fires.

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But this is my main point: closers today hardly ever put out fires. Rather, it is more often the setup guys who put out the fires.

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I totally agree. And that's done by managers who are afraid to defy convention for a move that just makes sense.

Didn't John Gibbons bring in B.J. Ryan in the 7th to get the Jays out of trouble recently?

[ChuckyB]

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If a setup man has the cajones to become a closer, they will get paid better.

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It's not a matter of "cajones," it's a matter of opportunity. Many players have gone from setup men to closer, or starter to closer without a hitch.

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And a for every Duane Ward there's an Octavio Dotel, Tim Worrell, Robert Person, Jeremy Affeldt and a Shawn Chacon.

[Jack of Arcades]

lol. Shawn Chacon had 35 saves with a 7.11 ERA. I think that kinda disproves your point, no?

Octavio Dotel was pitching pretty much without an arm.

Tim Worrell? 38 saves at 35, with a sub-3 ERA. He has 6 saves this year.

For all those guys you mentioned...

Gagne
Mo
Lidge
Dempster
Isringhausen
Todd Jones
Danys Baez
Joe Nathan
Chad Cordero
Miguel Batista
Eddie Guardado

And that's just last year.