Tony Mejia ranks the top 50 current NBA players

[sethypooh21]

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I rather have Manu, Kev Martin or Andre Iggy over Rip Hamilton.

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Fail.

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brag. I'm in a fantasy league with this guy (even though I guess Rip puts up pretty good fantasy numbers). All 3 of those guys are better than Rip (Iggy's TOs scare me, though).

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Fantasy I take all 3 over Rip (or at least Iggy and Martin). Real basketball, Rip is a better player.

[sethypooh21]

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kc,

I don't really disagree with that I guess, or the notion that he's ranked too high.. I'm just not sure that directly relates to what sethypooh said, unless I'm misunderstanding what he means by "mediocre team" guy. Yeah, he's a bit of a chucker and doesn't hit the boards, but he's still a solid scorer and on the right team could be a big addition.

Also, as somebody who suffered through Karl's sonics teams, I recall a somewhat insitutational disinterest with "rebounding" and "defense" and "players under 39".

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I'm not suggesting that Melo is a mediocre teammate, I'm suggesting that he's going to be on mediocre teams. He takes up too much cap space and too many possessions for what he gives you. That combination is fairly deadly to building a true contending team around him.

[Aces McGee]

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I rather have Manu, Kev Martin or Andre Iggy over Rip Hamilton.

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Fail.

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brag. I'm in a fantasy league with this guy (even though I guess Rip puts up pretty good fantasy numbers). All 3 of those guys are better than Rip (Iggy's TOs scare me, though).

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Fantasy I take all 3 over Rip (or at least Iggy and Martin). Real basketball, Rip is a better player.

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No way. Iguodala is much more versatile, Ginobili is a little more versatile, and Martin is basically Rip with slightly better range.

-McGee

[J.A.Sucker]

I stopped reading at Jason Kidd. What a joke. His first 5 players are fine, I guess, but who could get those wrong (the order is always a bit debatable, but who cares)?

[sethypooh21]

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No way. Iguodala is much more versatile, Ginobili is a little more versatile, and Martin is basically Rip with slightly better range.

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Iggy is versatile in that he does many things moderately well. Rip does a few things excellently and everything else (aside from perhaps rebounding) competently.

I mean, I guess it depends on where your team is, but a guy like Rip who scores with mad efficiency, is regarded as a pretty good defender, and, personal hobby horse of mine, doesn't need to dominate the ball to be effective (not to mention is probably one of the least fun guys in the league to guard) is a much more valuable piece on a good team then would be Iggy or K-mart. Ginobili is sufficiently different in style as to make the comparison hard (again, I think Many would be a mess on the Pistons, and while Rip would be effective with the Spurs, they would take a step back as Manu is their best/only playmaker.)

[kidcolin]

They're all more versatile. Iggy's the only one I'm reluctant to call a better player due to his TOs and lower shooting percentages, but he's also a much, much better defender.

Let's just compare last season, shall we?

link

What are the mains things that jump out at you? They all rebound at a better rate than him. They all get to the line at a better rate than him. They all commit less fouls while making more steals than him (hints towards being better defenders).

Yes, only Martin protects the ball noticeably better. Manu and Iggy turn it over at an alarming rate, but Rip is pretty bad, too. Not exactly a "win" for him.

Martin and G-Nobe flat out score more efficiently than Rip. They shoot just as good, but better with the 3s. They need less attempts to put up the numbers Rip does.

Aren't you a TS% guy? Guess who's the worst of 'em.. yep, Rip.

What about PER? He's even with Iggy, and a good distance from Martin and Ginobili.

WP48 your bag? Sure it's somewhat controversial, but what they heck. Rip posted a 0.070 last season, which is actually below average. Martin - .223 (very good), Iggy - .184 (pretty good), Ginobili - .311 (awesome).

There are a lot of close debates when comparing players, since there's a whole slew of factors. This one just isn't one of 'em.

Note: I actually like Rip quite a bit. He's a fine player.

[Aces McGee]

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Rip who scores with mad efficiency

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I don't use too many of these Hollinger type stats because I am not yet convinced of their place in basketball, but I do think points per shot is a pretty decent measure, and -- last season, anyway -- Rip doesn't come close to the other 3:

Martin 1.52
Ginobili 1.45
Iguodala 1.40
Hamilton 1.29

-McGee

[kidcolin]

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I stopped reading at Jason Kidd. What a joke. His first 5 players are fine, I guess, but who could get those wrong (the order is always a bit debatable, but who cares)?

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I hate when people say that, because no one actually stops there.

I also can't figure out what everyone has against Kidd. The guy is incredible. Fine if you don't like him at 6, but it's not the most laughable thing ever. He's almost definitely top 10, and definitely definitely top 15. He just posted one of his best seasons and he'll be regarded as a top 5 PG of all time.

[sethypooh21]

To be honest, I'm not, in general, a big fan of using statistical measurements in determining a basketball player's worth. I think Hollinger's metrics are fine, so far as they go (but if you mention Dave Berri as anything other than a joke, DIAGF) it's just that INDIVIDUAL basketball stats are SO context dependent that I think it's somewhat of a folly to draw conclusions as to who's a 'better' player from a purely statistical standpoint. I mean, Iggy gets more boards in part because his big men suck, so there are more boards to go around. Admittedly, that leaves me with a fairly unscientific way of evaluating players from a non-roto perspective.

Also, please note that if Martin and Iggy duplicate their production from last season over the next 2-3, I would completely re-evaluate.

[kidcolin]

To some degree I agree with you. A lot of it depends on the system. For example, some of Rips #s, like his FTA/game (or 48 or whatever) are hurt because he plays on the slowest team in basketball. But the rate numbers, like Rebound Rate, take possessions into account. So those are still a bit damning. Note that Manu plays on one of the slowest teams as well, and he still tears up the glass, playing alongside Timmah, nonetheless. Philly's a pretty slow team, too.

Kevin Martin, though, played on a really fast team (4th in the league), so maybe I'll have to think about that some more. On the other hand, the power battle between Artest and Bibby probably prevented the ball from getting to Martin more than it should.

Also, regarding the "doesn't need the ball" argument. I like that argument for guys Marion and Gerald Wallace. For Rip, though he might not need the ball, he needs a bunch of screens and plays called for him. This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, I don't think. It depends. I just want to point out it can be a little deceiving to say that.

In Rip's case, I'm a huge fan of the curl play at the elbow they call for him. I'm not a huge fan of any play where he's running through a ton of back screens to get him the ball (too many guys standing around just setting picks).