***SSSH Official NC/LC Thread September***

[Wolfram]

I'm a wuss and I'm back to playing unlimited betting holdem.

The biggest reason is that I am not a winning player at this game and I can't figure out why. I've read the books, studied 2+2, done hand reviews, discussed the game and still I lose. I've got about 80k hands combined and i'm ~ -1.xBB/100 over that sample. After trying to focus on 3/6 for 20k hands i am down about 300BB so it's time to quit. (I am +4ptbb/100 over 120k hands at NL)

I hate that fact 'cause I really like this game, moreso than NL. And I really want to figure out how it works. I'll probably still play from time to time, but only at microstakes to limit my losses.

And finally a fun hand from yesterdays 0.25/0.50 (lol, how the mighty have fallen)

first hand at table and Hero has AA utg. Hero opens, btn calls, bb calls.

Flop: Kd-9c-2d
Hero bets, btn raises, bb folds, Hero 3-bets, btn caps.

Turn: 7s
Hero checks, btn bets, hero raises, btn 3-bets, hero calls.

River: Th
Hero checks, btn bets, hero calls.

Button shows 7h2h.

[milesdyson]

wolfram, don't c/r the turn. your hand is not a big favorite vs. his turn betting range after he caps the flop and that card falls. bet or c/c the turn.

[Heisenb3rg]

I actually cant think of a single other poster who posts as many spew hands as myles.

(not saying he spews more than ppl here, just he posts them more)

I even remmeebr a thread a long time ago where myles posted a thread containing 9 spew hands and encouraged everyone to post their own... instead of obliging, they just criticized how badly his were played...

Here's how far I go with a read against a super LAGtard player after dropping 1k$ in 15 minutes *IE at the peak of my tilt*... I had a read that he only 3-bets the flop with a draw or a weak made hand, raises the turn otherwise.
I proceeded to quit all my tables mid session after this hand took place. I would put this as my worst played hand ever.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, CO calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (12.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: 14.25BB
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Jc 7c</font>
<font color="#ffffff">CO showed Td 8d</font>

I think the only bets that showed positive expectation were my preflop call and my river bet lol

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
wolfram, don't c/r the turn. your hand is not a big favorite vs. his turn betting range after he caps the flop and that card falls. bet or c/c the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, i'm in a bad mood right now so I apologize before hand. Also I am a losing player so my insight is probably worthless in this matter.

But WTF??!?!?!

How the hell does that turn card change anything? Since this guy is a microstakes retard I think his range is pretty much any 2. Ok, lets not go that far, but his range has to be a flushdraw (that he'll bet 100%, they never take the free card), an overplayed King, or a made hand (set/2-pair).

I think vs that range I'm fine. Literally 4 hands before this one (on another table) a guy 4-bet me on a K-T-3r flop with K8 (I had K3 and of course the turn is a T).

(But I'm probably wrong)

How am I supposed to extract value from overplayed donkey draws when I can't check/raise this turn? Leading gets him off the hook.

[Scary_Tiger]

lol the difference between your hand and miles' hands are that in his hands they call the river with T7.

[Gurravasa]

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8SB, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12BB, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (20BB, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Results:
Final pot: 28BB
<font color="#ffffff">Button shows Jh 4c </font>
<font color="#ffffff">SB shows 6d 6c </font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero shows 9d 8d </font>

[Wolfram]

Wow.

But I don't understand the turn check + river donk.

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]

How the hell does that turn card change anything? Since this guy is a microstakes retard I think his range is pretty much any 2. Ok, lets not go that far, but his range has to be a flushdraw (that he'll bet 100%, they never take the free card), an overplayed King, or a made hand (set/2-pair).


[/ QUOTE ]

Wolfram,

I would think at microstakes any raise means two-pair or better? I dunno, I'm not going to feel bad about checkraising that ever.

I went through a bad stretch about a year ago that got me gunshy, bigtime. Grasping a number out of thin air, I think that having your style match up to the game you are playing is worth around 1 BB/100. There are so many hands where there's no particular reason to put your opponent on a particular hand, but if you tend to guess right for the games you are playing it's worth a ton of value. Like knowing what it says about opponent range when he bets or checks when the 3rd flush card comes. When you start out and move up the limits you "learn" how people play, and you think that's the only way they play, but what you're really doing is guessing and in some sense running good because of those guesses. And when the games change as they do every 9 months, kapow!

Also I still think there is no book out there that adjusts its strategy for when everyone is playing like you and your opponents have adjusted to this. HPFAP and Theory of Poker are still the closest. There are just strategy fundamentals, the value of your bets, that you have to learn for yourself and aren't going to be published in books or on these boards because they are mostly boring. And once you've done all that you need to know when to ditch it for the reads I've mentioned above, because that's a large part of your profit. That's all I got for you, it could be you're just running bad too.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
it could be your just running bad too.

[/ QUOTE ]
For 80k hands?

Granted, I used to suck a lot (even more?) at lhe 6max. I was applying my NL style to the game and also sometimes playing under the influence (alchohol and prescription drugs). But I really tried to put my act together this time, started spewing much less, paid much more attention to equity, stopped playing as much fit-or-fold and finding hero folds and still I lost money for 20k hands.

I think it would be an amazing coincidence that I lost money for the first sample because I sucked and then I started playing good and ran badly and still lost. Most likely conclusion is that I just plain suck.

I'll just bite the bullet and move to NL. I'm still playing live LHE regularly (and winning money at that, but that's easy cause it's a rake-free homegame), and I'll donk off at the .25/.50 game. Maybe one day I'll be a +EV player there and can try to move up.

[jba]

sorry for the content but don't think this deserves it's own thread

I raise AA utg, utg+1 3bets, mp calls, button caps, I call, others call.

utg+1: laggy/maniacal/bad pf, weak/bad/loose postflop
mp: fish
button: good player, knows i'm on the laggy side. also i run hotter than the sun against him


flop: A92 rainbow
I pretty much have to bet here right?